与安德烈的晚餐
[汽车喇叭声] [Horn Honks]
[肖恩的独白] 剧作家的生活是很艰辛的 [Shawn Narrating]The life of a playwright is tough.
它没人们想象的那么容易 It's not easy, as some people seem to think.
你辛辛苦苦地写剧本 却没人愿意把它们搬上舞台 You work hard writing plays, and nobody puts them on.
于是你只好找点别的事做 试着让自己挣点钱生活 You take up other lines of work to try to make a living--
我当了个演员 I became an actor--
可人们不愿意雇我 and people don't hire you.
所以我只好到处打打零工、跑跑腿 So you just spend your days doing the errands of your trade.
今天 我不得不早上十点起床 Today I'd had to be up by 10:00 in the morning...
好打几个重要的电话 To make some important phone calls.
然后我去文具店买了一些信封 然后又去了影印店 Then I'd gone to the stationery store to buy envelopes. Then to the Xerox shop.
总有一大堆要做的事 There were dozens of things to do.
到五点我终于都干完了 于是我去了邮局 By 5:00 I'd finally made it to the post office...
把一些我写的剧本的复印件寄出去 And mailed off several copies of my plays...
同时我一直留意自己的答录机 Meanwhile checking constantly with my answering service...
看看我的经纪人有没有给我接什么戏 To see if my agent had called with any acting work.
一到早上 信箱就塞满各种账单 In the morning, the mailbox had just been stuffed with bills.
我能怎么办？ 我拿什么付这些账单？ What was I supposed to do? How was I supposed to pay them?
不管怎么说 我已经够努力了 After all, I was already doing my best.
我这一辈子都住在这个城市里 I've lived in this city all my life.
在上东区长大 I grew up on the Upper East Side...
当我十岁的时候 家里挺有钱 我属于上流社会 And when I was 10 years old I was rich, I was an aristocrat...
坐着出租车四处闲逛 日子过的很安逸 Riding around in taxis, surrounded by comfort...
我那时脑子里想的全是艺术和音乐 And all I thought about was art and music.
现在 我36岁了 一心只想着怎么挣钱 Now I'm 36, and all I think about is money.
现在已经是晚上7点 It was now 7:00...
没什么能比得上回到家里 让女朋友黛比给我做一顿美味丰盛的晚餐 And I would have liked nothing better than to go home and have my girlfriend Debby...
Cook me a nice, delicious dinner.
不过 因为最近几年 我们的经济状况一直不好 But for the last several years our financial circumstances...
黛比不得不每周去做3天的夜班服务生 Have forced Debby to work three nights a week as a waitress.
说到底 总得有人赚点钱吧 After all, somebody had to bring in a little money.
所以今晚我就一个人了 So I was on my own.
最糟的是 我被一件古怪的事找上了 But the worst thing of all was that I'd been trapped by an odd series of circumstances...
我不得不答应和一个家伙吃顿饭 毫不夸张的说 几年以来我一直躲着他 Into agreeing to have dinner with a man I'd been avoiding literally for years.
他的名字叫安德烈·格里高利 His name was Andre Gregory.
他曾经是我很亲密的朋友 At one time he'd been a very close friend of mine...
也是我在剧院里最受尊敬的同事 As well as my most valued colleague in the theater.
实际上 是他第一个看好我 In fact, he was the man who had first discovered me...
把我写的一部戏推上职业舞台的 And put one of my plays on the professional stage.
我认识他那会儿 他已经在事业上有所作为了 是一个戏剧导演 When I'd known Andre, he'd been at the height of his career as a theater director.
他和他的班子搞了个大手笔 The amazing work he did with his company, the Manhattan Project...
那部戏把全世界的观众都震惊了 Had just stunned audiences throughout the world.
但他后来不知道哪根筋抽了 But then something had happened to Andre.
他不再搞戏剧 几乎人间蒸发 He dropped out of the theater. He sort of disappeared.
似乎每过几个月 他的家人只知道他在某个奇怪的地方旅行 For months at a time, his family seemed only to know that he was traveling...
比如西藏 In some odd place like Tibet...
这看起来很不正常 因为他非常爱他妻子和孩子们 Which was really weird because he loved his wife and children.
他过去从来不喜欢离开家 He never used to like to leave home at all.
还有更绝的 我听说有人曾经在一个聚会上碰到他 Or else you'd hear that someone had met him at a party and he'd been telling people...
他当时跟人说了一些和树交流之类的事 That he talked with trees or something like that.
按我看 安德烈肯定受了什么打击 Obviously, something terrible had happened to Andre.
[钢琴曲 轻爵士乐] ##[Piano: Light Jazz]
一想到要跟他见面我就觉得紧张 The whole idea of meeting him made me very nervous.
我真的对这种事没多大兴趣 I mean, I really wasn't up for that sort of thing.
我自己一堆麻烦还没处理呢 你看 我又帮不了他什么 I had problems of my own. I mean, I couldn't help Andre.
我是不是该跟他推心置腹一番 给他把把脉什么的？ Was I supposed to be a doctor, or what?
?? [钢琴曲] ##[Piano Continues]
- 你好 - 你好 - Hello. - Hello.
- 您的衣服号 - 谢谢 - Here you go. - Thank you.
- 先生您好 - 呃 我叫瓦利斯·肖恩 - Yes, sir. - Ah, sir, my name is Wallace Shawn.
我和安德烈·格里高利有预约 I'm expected at the table of Andre Gregory.
先生 桌子要等一会才能用 That table will be a moment, sir.
您可以在吧台先喝点东西 If you like, you may have a drink at the bar.
[女人的笑声] [Woman Laughing]
[谈话声] [Chattering]
- 晚上好 先生 - 呃 我想来杯苏打水 - Good evening, sir. - Uh, could I have a club soda, please?
抱歉先生 我们这里只有亭泉了 I'm sorry, sir. We only serve Source de Pavilion.
哦 没关系 那个就行了 谢谢 Oh, that'd be fine, thank you.
之前给安德烈打电话的时候 他建议我们在这一家饭店见面 When I'd called Andre, and he'd suggested that we meet in this particular restaurant...
我很惊讶 因为以前他的品味是很低调的 I'd been rather surprised, because Andre's taste used to be very ascetic...
虽然大家都知道他很有钱 Even though people have always known that he had some money somewhere.
你想想 不然他能一边飞到亚洲去什么的 I mean, how the hell else could he have been flying off to Asia and so on...
同时一边还能养家？ And still have been supporting his family?
我之所以答应来这是因为一个老朋友 乔治·哥拉斯菲尔德 The reason I was meeting Andre was that an acquaintance of mine, George Grassfield...
给我打了电话 坚持让我见见安德烈 Had called me and just insisted that I had to see him.
乔治先前在晚上遛狗 在城里一个偏僻的地方 Apparently, George had been walking his dog in an odd section of town the night before...
他突然就撞见了安德烈 And he'd suddenly come upon Andre...
乔治看见他正靠在一栋摇摇欲坠的老楼墙边啜泣 Leaning against a crumbling old building and sobbing.
安德烈解释说 自己之前正在看 Andre had explained to George that he'd just been watching...
英格玛·伯格曼的电影 《秋日奏鸣曲》 The Ingmar Bergman movie Autumn Sonata...
那是在25个街区之外 about 25 blocks away...
他突然产生一股难以抑制的大哭冲动 And he'd been seized by a fit of ungovernable crying...
当电影里伯格曼演的角色说：“我总能活在我的艺术里 When the character played by Ingrid Bergman had said...
"I could always live in my art, but never in my life. "
可我永远无法活在我的生活里”
沃利！ Wally!
- 哎哟 - 哎哟喂 - Wow. - My God.
[沃利的笑声] [Wally Chuckling]
[沃利的独白] 我记得第一次跟安德烈的班子合作时 [Wally Narrating] I remember, when I first started working with Andre's company...
老是不习惯他的演员见面时都会相互拥抱 I couldn't get over the way the actors would hug when they greeted each other.
我想 这下我可真的是在剧院里了 "Wow. Now I'm really in the theater," I thought.
你看上去气色不错啊 Well, you look terrific.
我心里可是糟透了 [笑声] Well, I feel terrible. [Laughing]
[沃利的笑声] [Wally Laughing]
晚上好 先生 很高兴又见到你 Good evening, sir. Nice to see you again.
谢谢你 晚上好 呃 如果可以的话 我要一杯气泡酒 Thank you. Good evening. Ah, I think I'll have a spritzer, if I could.
- 没问题 - 谢谢 - Yes, sir. - Thank you.
[沃利的独白] 我觉得非常紧张 [Wally Narrating] I was feeling incredibly nervous.
我都不知道能不能撑到跟他吃完这顿饭 I wasn't sure I could stick through an entire meal with him.
很好 Great.
我们东聊西扯 So we talked about this and that.
他告诉我一些 关于杰西·葛罗托斯基的事 He told me a few things about Jerzy Grotowski...
一位伟大的波兰戏剧导演 The great Polish theater director...
是他的朋友兼心灵导师式的人物 Who was a friend and almost like a kind of a guru of Andre's.
- [模糊的谈话声] - 葛罗托斯基也离开剧院了 - [Indistinct Chattering] - He'd also dropped out of the theater.
他本身就是一个很非同寻常的人物 Grotowski was a pretty unusual character himself.
他曾经很胖 后来减了不少体重 At one time, he'd been quite fat, then he'd lost an incredible amount of weight...
变得很瘦 还留起了大胡子 And become very thin and grown a beard.
- 您的桌子可以用了 如果二位想坐下的话 - 哦 - Your table is ready, if you feel like sitting down. - Oh.
- 哦 - 好的 谢谢 - Oh. - Yes. Thank you.
[沃利的独白] 我明白 能让这个晚上好过的唯一办法 [Wally Narrating] I was beginning to realize that the only way to make this evening bearable...
就是向安德烈发问 Would be to ask Andre a few questions.
问问题总能让我放松 Asking questions always relaxes me.
实际上 我有时幻想自己有个秘密职业 In fact, I sometimes think that my secret profession...
一个私密调查者 一个侦探 Is that I'm a private investigator, a detective.
我总是乐于挖掘人们的内心 I always enjoy finding out about people.
即使他们正处在绝对的痛苦中 我总是觉得这很有趣 Even if they're in absolute agony, I always find it very... Interesting.
- 对了 他还是个瘦子吗 - 什么？ - By the way, is he still thin? - What?
葛罗托斯基 他还瘦吗？ Grotowski. Is he still thin?
哦 [咯咯笑] 那必须的 Oh. [Chuckles] Absolutely.
服务生？ 呃 我们不需要这个 Oh, waiter? Uh, I think we can do without this.
- 好的 先生 - 谢谢 - Yes, sir. - Thank you.
这道菜怎么样？ What about this one?
[笑声] 七虾戏水 [Laughing] Seven swimming shrimp.
- 可以点菜了吗? - 嗯 好的 - Ready for your order? - Ah, yes.
呃 这个Galuska 你们是怎么做的? Uh, the Galuska -- How -- How do you prepare that?
[沃利的独白] 安德烈似乎 是个点菜的老手 [Wally Narrating] Andre seemed to know an awful lot about the menu.
- 葡萄干和焯杏仁包的饺子 - 我一个字也看不懂 - Dumpling with raisins, blanched almonds. - I didn't understand a word of it.
- 我认为很不错 - 嗯 - Very good, I think. - Hmm.
算了 我打算点这个 葡萄干鹌鹑 鹌鹑 No, I -- I think I'll have the Cailles aux Raisin, the quail.
- 很好 - 哦 鹌鹑！ 我也要点这个 - Very good. - Oh, quails! I'll have that as well.
- 两份 - 不错 - 不错！ - Two. - Great. - Great!
然后 冷拼我想点 普瓦松拼盘 And then I think, to begin with, the Terrine de Poissons.
- 好的 - 那是什么？ - Yes. - What is that?
呃 一种碎肉酱- 挺清淡 鱼做的 Uh, it's a sort of pate -- light, made of fish.
- 里面有刺吗 - [笑声] 没刺 - Does it have bones in it? - [Chuckles] No bones.
非常安全 Perfectly safe.
那啥 Bramborová Polévka是什么？ Well, um --What is the, um, Bramborova Polevka?
一种土豆汤 非常美味 It's a potato soup. It's quite delicious.
哦 好 那不错 请给我来一份 Oh, well, that's great. I'll have that.
- 非常感谢 - 谢谢 - Thank you very kindly. - Thank you very much.
搞定了 [笑声] Well. [Laughing]
我们最后一次见面时是什么时候? When was the last time that we saw each other?
[沃利的独白] 于是我们聊了会儿我的写作和表演 [Wally Narrating] So we talked for a while about my writing and my acting...
还有我的女友黛比 And about my girlfriend, Debby.
然后聊了他的妻子乔姬塔 还有他的孩子们 尼古拉斯和玛丽娜 And we talked about his wife, Chiquita, and his two children, Nicolas and Marina.
[安德烈的笑声] 然后我回到纽约呆着 [Andre Laughing] And I'd stayed back in New York.
终于 我开始旁敲侧击地问他这些年都忙什么 [Wally] Finally, I got around to asking him what he'd been up to in the last few years.
哦天哪 听见它我高兴极了 Oh, God. I'm just dying to hear it.
- 真的么 - 真的 - Really? - Really.
开始 他表现的有点不太情愿聊这个 At first, he seemed a little reluctant to go into it...
所以我接着追问 最后他开始回答我了 So I just kept asking, and finally he started to answer.
...一个会议 关于准戏剧作品的 ...conference on paratheatrical work then.
呃 这说起来 大概是五年前了 And, uh, this must have been about five years ago...
葛罗托斯基和我正在沿着第五大道边走边聊 and, uh, Grotowski and I were walking along Fifth Avenue and we were talking.
他邀请我在那个夏天去波兰教课 You see, he'd invited me to come to teach that summer in Poland.
就是开个讲习班 给那些演员啊 导演啊什么的上课 You know, to teach a workshop to actors and directors and whatever.
我已经告诉过他我不想去了 因为 说真的 我没什么可教的 And I had told him that I didn't want to come, because, really, I had nothing left to teach.
我没什么存货可说的 我一无所知 I had nothing left to say. I didn't know anything.
我什么都教不了 I couldn't teach anything.
排演对我来说没任何意义了 Exercises meant nothing to me anymore.
倒腾那些剧本显得很可笑 Working on scenes from plays seemed ridiculous.
我-我不知道该做什么 我是说 我根本就是做不到 I - I didn't know what to do. I mean, I just couldn't do it.
所以他说“不如这样 你干脆告诉我 你想要什么才愿意为我办个讲习班 So he said, "Why don't you tell me anything you'd like to have if you did a workshop for me.
不管多么出格的要求 也许我能满足你呢” No matter how outrageous. And maybe I can give it to you."
于是我说 “那好 如果你能给我 So I said, "Well, if you could give me...
40个犹太女人 她们既不说英语也不说法语 "40 Jewish women who speak neither English nor French --
他们是在剧院待了很久的女人 "either women who've been in the theater for a long time and want to leave it...
想要离开 又不知道为什么的 "But don't know why...
要不就是对戏剧有热情的年轻女人 却从没看过一部让她们钟情的戏剧的 "or young women who love the theater, but have never seen a theater they could love.
如果这些女人会演奏小号或者竖琴 "And if these women could play the trumpet or the harp...
如果我可以在森林里工作 我就去” and if I could work in a forest, I'd come."
[笑声] [Laughing]
一周 或许两周之后 他从波兰打电话给我 A week later, or two weeks later, he called me from Poland.
他说 “40个犹太女人有点难找” And he said, "Well, 40 Jewish women -- that's a little hard to find."
但他又说 “我的确找到40个相当符合要求的女人了” But he said, "I do have 40 women. They all pretty much fit the definition."
他还说“我同时还找到了一些很有意思的男人 And he said, "I also have some very interesting men...
但你不用非得和他们一起工作” "but you don't have to work with them.
“这些人的共同点就是 他们都对戏剧抱有怀疑” "These are all people who have in common the fact that they're questioning the theater.
“他们不全会小号或竖琴 但都至少会一门乐器 "They don't all play the trumpet or the harp, but they all play a musical instrument.
而且他们没一个会说英语” And none of them speak English."
而且 沃利 他替我找到一片森林 And he'd found me a forest, Wally.
森林里仅有的居民就是一头野猪和一个隐士 And the only inhabitants of this forest were some wild boar and a hermit.
他开出的条件是我无法拒绝的 So that was an offer I couldn't refuse.
我必须得去 I had to go.
所以 我去了波兰 组员是一群非常棒的年轻男女 So, I went to Poland, and it was this wonderful group of young men and women.
他为我们找的那个森林简直绝了 And the forest he had found us was absolutely magical.
你知道吗 那是个巨大的森林 You know, it was a huge forest.
里面的树都那么粗 I mean, the trees were so large...
四到五个人手拉着手 都不能环抱它们 that four or five people linking their arms couldn't get their arms around the trees.
于是我们在野外露营 在一个小小的城堡废墟旁 So we were camped out beside the ruins of this tiny little castle...
我们把一块巨大的石板当桌子 围着它吃饭 And we would eat around this great stone slab that served as a sort of a table.
我们的日程通常是日落时分开工 And our schedule was that usually we'd start work around sunset...
一般工作到早上六七点结束 and then generally we'd work until about 6:00 or 7:00 in the morning.
然后 因为波兰人能歌善舞 And then, because the Poles love to sing and dance...
我们唱啊跳啊直到到上午10点11点左右 we'd sing and dance until about 10:00 or 11:00 in the morning.
然后我们吃饭 基本上就是面包 果酱 奶酪和茶 And then we'd have our food, which was generally bread, jam, cheese and tea.
接着我们一直从中午睡到日落 And then we'd sleep from around noon to sunset.
严格来说 当然 Now, technically, of course --
严格来说 那种状况是非常有趣的 Technically, the situation is a very interesting one...
因为当你在一座森林里 because if you find yourself in a forest with a group of 40 people...
和40个语言不通的人在一起 你就没有任何锚泊点了 who don't speak your language, then all your moorings are gone.
愿闻其详 What do you mean exactly?
你看 我们做的一切就是坐在那等待 Well, what we'd do is just sit there and wait...
等着某个人有种冲动去做某件事 for someone to have an impulse to do something.
从某种程度上说 这很像戏剧中的即兴创作 Now, in a way that's -- that's something like a theatrical improvisation.
你明白的 如果你是一个正在排演契诃夫作品的导演 I mean, you know, if you were a director working on a play by Chekhov...
你可能就会让扮演母亲 儿子 叔叔的演员 you might have the actors playing the mother, the son and the uncle...
全都围坐在房间里 做一个剧中没有的假想情节 all sit around in a room and do a made-up scene that isn't in the play.
比如 你可能会对他们说 For instance, you might say to them...
“听着 假设一个下雨的周日下午 在索林家的庄园 "All right. Let's say that it's a rainy Sunday afternoon on Sorin's estate...
你们都被雨困在了画室里” and you're all trapped in the drawing room together."
于是所有人都会开始即兴表演- And then everyone would improvise --
说一些 做一些 他们的角色在如此环境下可能去说去做的东西 saying and doing what their character might say and do in that circumstance.
不一样的是 我们在波兰所做的那种即兴创作- Except that in this type of improvisation -- the kind we did in Poland --
主题是每个人自己 the theme is oneself.
它遵循了和即兴演出一样的规则 So, you follow the same law of improvisation...
也就是去做任何角色给你的冲动 which is that you do whatever your impulse, as the character, tells you to do...
但波兰的这个情况里 你就是你的角色 but in this case, you are the character.
所以 再也没有了想象情境让你藏身 So there's no imaginary situation to hide behind...
也没有了供你藏身的人 And there's no other person to hide behind.
你所做的实际上就是问一些问题 What you're doing, in fact, is you're asking those same questions...
如斯坦尼斯拉夫斯基所说 演员应该从角色出发 时常问自己的 that Stanislavsky said the actor should constantly ask himself as a character:
我是谁？ 我为什么在这？ Who am I? Why am I here?
我从哪来？我将去何处？ Where do I come from, and where am I going?
不同的是 你不再替角色发问 你替自己发问 But instead of applying them to a role, you apply them to yourself.
- 嗯 - 或者 再换个方式看 - Hmm. - Or, to look at it a little differently...
在某种程度上 这就像是一下回到了童年时期 in a way, it's like going right back to childhood...
一群孩子就这么来到一个房间 或者是被领进去的 where a group of children simply come into a room or are brought into a room --
没有玩具 他们开始做游戏 without toys -- and begin to play.
这就是成人在重新学着去做游戏 Grown-ups were learning how to play again.
这么说 你们会一起坐在某个地方 So, you would, uh, all sit together somewhere...
然后 呃 你们会以某种方式做游戏 and, uh, you would play in some way.
- 可你们到底做了什么？ - 好 我给你举个例子 - But what would you actually do? - Well, I could give you a good example.
我们在出发去森林前 You see, we worked, uh, together for a week in the city...
会一起在城里工作一周 before we went off to our forest.
当然 葛罗托斯基也在城里 And of course, Grotowski was there in the city too.
我能听见他每晚组织的 一种叫蜂巢的活动 I heard that every night, he conducted something called a beehive.
我喜欢蜂巢的声音 I loved the sound of this beehive...
所以在出发去森林的前一或两天那晚 so a night or two before we were supposed to go off to the country...
我揪着他的领子对他说 “听着 关于这个蜂巢 I grabbed him by the collar, and I said, "Listen, about this beehive.
我有点想参与进来 "You know, I'd kind of like to participate in one.
直觉告诉我它会很有意思” Just instinctively I feel it would be something interesting."
然后他说“当然可以 与其只是参与 And he said, "Well, certainly. In fact, why don't you, with your group...
不如就由你和你的组员来带领蜂巢吧？” lead the beehive instead of participating in one?"
你知道吗 我 [笑声] 我立马就很紧张 你懂的 然后我说“那么 到底什么是蜂巢” You know, I -- [Laughing] I got very nervous, you know, and I said, "Well, what is a beehive?"
他说 “这么说吧 蜂巢就是 He said, "Well, a beehive is...
在8点钟的时候 一百个陌生人走进同一个房间” at 8:00 a hundred strangers come into a room."
我说“还有呢” 他说“还有 之后发生的一切都叫蜂巢” I said, "Yes?" He said, "Yes, and whatever happens is a beehive."
我说“好 那我该做什么？” 他说“由你决定” I said, "Yes, but what am I supposed to do?" He said, "That's up to you."
我说“别 我真的不想这么做 我只参与就行了” I said, "No, no. I really don't want to do this. I'll just participate."
他说“不 不 你来领导蜂巢” And he said, "No, no. You lead the beehive."
沃利 我那会儿吓坏了 Well, I was terrified, Wally.
我指的是 我有种在舞台上的感觉 I mean, in a way, I felt on stage.
最后我还是做了 I did it anyway.
天哪 跟我说说吧 God. Well, tell me about it.
有这么一首歌 我有它的录音带 哪天我可以放给你听 You see, there was this song-- I have a tape of it. I can play it for you one day.
它简直美得难以置信 And it's just unbelievably beautiful.
我们的组员里有个女人 她知道一点这首圣弗朗西斯之歌的片段 You see, one of the women in our group knew a few fragments of this song of Saint Francis...
那是一首感谢主赐予你眼睛的歌 and it's a song in which you thank God for your eyes...
你感谢主赐予你心 感谢主赐予你朋友 and you thank God for your heart, and you thank God for your friends...
感谢主给了你生命 and you thank God for your life.
它一遍又一遍地重复自己 And it, uh -- It repeats itself over and over again.
后来它变成了我们的主题歌 And this became our theme song.
我哪天一定要把这首歌放给你听 I really must play this thing for you one day...
因为你绝对无法相信 一群不懂如何唱歌的人 because you just can't believe that a group of people who don't know how to sing...
能创造如此美丽的东西 could create something so beautiful.
所以 我决定当人们来参加蜂巢时 So, I decided that when the people arrived for the beehive...
我们的组员要已经在那里 在唱这首美丽的歌 that our group would already be there singing this very beautiful song...
然后我们可以一遍又一遍地唱它 and that we would simply sing it over and over again.
其中有个人带来了一个很大的泰迪熊 One of the people decided to bring her very large teddy bear, you know.
呵呵 因为她有点担心这样的活动 Well, she's a little afraid of this event.
有的人想带条床单 And somebody wanted to bring a -- a sheet.
还有个人想带一大碗水 And somebody else wanted to bring a large bowl of water...
以防人们中暑或者口渴 in case people got hot or thirsty.
还有人建议我们点上蜡烛 And somebody suggested that we have candles --
不要人造光 而要烛光 that there be no artificial light, but candlelight.
我还记得大家如何为这个晚上做准备 And I remember watching people preparing for this evening.
当然 没有人化妆 也没有戏服 Of course, there was no makeup, and there were no costumes...
但它实际上和人们准备一场演出是一模一样的 but it was exactly the way that people prepare for a performance.
大家脱下他们的首饰和手表 You know, people sort of taking off their jewelry and their watches...
把它们都堆好 确保一切安全 and stowing it away and making sure it's all secure.
人们陆续抵达 就和他们去去剧院看戏时一样 And then slowly people arrived, the way they would arrive at the theater--
有独自来的 有结伴的 十个的 十五个的 什么样的都有 in ones and twos and 10s and 15s and what have you.
当时我和组员们就坐在那 唱那首美丽的歌 And we were just sitting there, and we were singing this very beautiful song.
人们开始坐过来 开始跟着学它 And people started to sit with us and started to learn the song.
当然 在任何的表演和即兴演出中 Now, there is, of course, as in any performance or improvisation...
当它就要变的无聊时你会有预感 Instinct for when things are gonna get boring.
所以 在某些临界点——一个或一个半小时以后 So, at a certain point -- It may have taken an hour to get there, an hour and a half--
我突然抓住泰迪熊 把它扔向空中 I suddenly grabbed this teddy bear and threw it in the air...
140或130个人就这么炸开了 at which 140 or 130 people suddenly exploded.
你知道的 就像杰克逊·波洛克（抽象派画家）的画一样 You know, it was like a -- a Jackson Pollack painting, you know.
人们从刚才唱歌的那个紧密小圈子中炸开来 Human beings exploded out of this tight little circle that was singing the song.
一眨眼就已经有两个圈子在跳舞了 And before I knew it, there were two circles, dancing, you know --
一个顺时针跳 另一个逆时针跳 one dancing clockwise, the other dancing counterclockwise...
以一种主要从腰下来的节奏 with this rhythm mostly from the waist down.
也就是说 和美洲印第安人跳的舞一样 有重击 有持续的节奏 In other words, like an American Indian dance, with this thumping, persistent rhythm.
[人们的笑声] [People Chuckling]
如今 人们很容易明白 我们在讨论的是集体迷失 Now, you could easily see, 'cause we're talking about group trance...
在这种活动和希特勒的纽伦堡集会间 where the line between something like this and something like Hitler's Nuremberg rallies...
只有一条很细小很细小的界线 is, in a way, a very thin line.
不管怎么说 在一个小时这种狂野的 迷乱的舞蹈后 Anyway, after about an hour of this wild, hypnotic dancing...
葛罗托斯基和我发现 我们正相对而坐 在整个舞蹈的中心 Grotowski and I found ourselves sitting opposite each other in the middle of this whole thing.
于是我们把泰迪熊互相扔来扔去 And we threw the teddy bear back and forth.
你知道的 在某种意义上 你可以说它很幼稚 You know, on one level, you could say this is childish.
然后我突然的 让泰迪熊贴在我的胸上 And I gave the teddy bear suck, suddenly, at my breast.
再把它扔给葛罗托斯基 他也把它贴在胸口 And then I threw the teddy bear to him, and he gave it suck at his breast.
然后泰迪熊再次被扔向空中 And then the teddy bear was thrown up into the air again...
人群又一次爆发了 它的形状变成了...某种东西 at which there was another explosion of form into... something.
它们-它们像什么呢 你知道吗 这是个- And these --What was it like? You know, this is the --
它有点儿像万花筒 一个人体万花筒 There's something like a kaleidoscope, like a human kaleidoscope.
那个夜晚就以万花筒的不断变幻组成 The evening was made up of shiftings of the kaleidoscope.
现在 我所能记起的其它事情 Now, the only other things that I remember...
除了我不断试着去指导这件- other than constantly trying to guide this thing...
始终关系着运动 节奏 反复和歌唱的事 which was always involved with either movement, rhythm, repetition or song --
还有颂唱 因为 呃 组员里的两个人 Or chanting, because, uh, two people in my group...
带来了乐器 一个长笛和一只鼓 had brought musical instruments, a flute and a drum...
当然 它们是宗教乐器 which, of course, are sacred instruments --
除了这些 我能记得 有时候房间里的活动会分裂 was that sometimes the room would break up...
成为6到7个同时在进行的不同活动 into six or seven different things going on at once.
你知道吗 6到7个各不相同的即兴创作 You know, six or seven different improvisations...
它们每一个看上去都以某种方式相互关联 all of which seemed, in some way, related to each other.
就像一张壮观的蜘蛛网 It was -- It was like a magnificent cobweb.
有一个瞬间 我发现葛罗托斯基在小组中央 And at one point, I noticed that Grotowski was at the center of one group...
蜷缩在很多蜡烛旁边 这些蜡烛是人们先前收到一起的 huddled around a bunch of candles that they'd gathered together.
他就像一个被火焰迷住的小孩 And like a little child fascinated by fire...
我看到他把手放到火舌中 并且就留在那不动了 I saw that he had his hand right in the flame and was holding it there.
当我走近他的小组 我想知道自己能不能做到 And as I approached his group, I wondered if I could do it.
我把左手伸进火舌 发现我想保持多久都可以 I put my left hand in the flame and I found I could hold it there for as long as I liked...
既没有烧伤 也没有疼痛 and there was no burn and no pain.
但当我试图把右手伸进去时 我坚持不了哪怕一秒钟 But when I tried to put my right hand in the flame, I couldn't hold it there for a second.
所以葛罗托斯基说 如果觉得烫 试着改变自己身上一些小小的地方 So Grotowski said, "If it burns, try to change some little thing in yourself."
然后我试着这样做 但没效果 And I tried to do that. Didn't work.
然后我记得有一个非常非常美丽的队列 有床单的队列 Then I remember a very, very beautiful procession with the sheet...
床单下裹着一个人 and there was somebody being carried below the sheet.
你知道吗 那床单就像某种圣经里的华盖 You know, the sheet was like some great biblical canopy.
整个小组在房间中交织起伏 吟咏着 And the entire group was weaving around the room and chanting.
然后有这么个时候 人们跳起舞 And then at one point, people were dancing...
我当时正和一个姑娘跳 and I was dancing with a girl...
突然间 我们的手开始振动着相互靠拢 and suddenly our hands began vibrating near each other--
就像这样 振动着 振动着 like this --vibrating, vibrating.
于是我们跪下来 我一下子就在她的胳膊中呜咽了 And we went down to our knees, and suddenly I was sobbing in her arms...
而她用胳膊轻轻抱了抱我 然后她也开始哭了 and she was sort of cradling me in her arms, and then she started to cry too.
然后我们-我们拥抱了一会儿 And then we -- then we just hugged each other for a moment.
接着 呃 我们重新加入舞蹈 And, uh, then we joined the dance again.
后来到了某个时候 几个小时后 And then at a certain point, hours later...
我们又开始唱圣弗朗西斯之歌 we returned to the singing of the song of Saint Francis...
那就是整个蜂巢的结尾 and that was the end of the beehive.
再一次 当它结束后 就和剧院散场时一模一样 And then, again, when it was over, it was just like the theater after a performance.
人们开始戴上耳环和手表 You know, people sort of put on their earrings and their wristwatches...
接着 我和我的组员们去了火车站 and we went off to the railroad station...
在那喝了很多啤酒 吃了顿丰盛的晚饭 to drink a lot of beer and have a good dinner.
哦 还有一个女孩 不是组员之一 Oh, and there was one girl, who wasn't in our group...
但她就是不愿离开 所以我们带上了她 but who just wouldn't leave, so we took her along with us.
[咯咯笑] [Chuckling]
哈 Huh.
天啊 跟我讲讲你和你的小组做的其它事吧 God. Well, tell me some of the other things you did with your group.
好 我记得有次我们在城里 Well-- Oh, I remember once when we were in the city...
我们试着去做一次即兴表演 就像我过去在纽约做的那些 We tried doing an improvisation --you know, the kind that I used to do in New York.
呃 所以人都被假定在一架飞机上 Uh, everybody was supposed to be on an airplane...
机长告诉他们引擎出了问题 and they've all learned from the pilot there's something wrong with the motor.
在这次即兴创作中有件很不同寻常的事 But what was unusual about this improvisation...
两个人在参与的过程中 恋爱了 was that two people who participated in it... fell in love.
实际上他们现在已经结婚了 They've, in fact, married.
当我们正在- 是的 出于恐惧 And when we were -- Yeah, out of fear...
害怕飞机坠落 他们相爱了 of being on this plane, they fell in love...
他们真的觉得自己随时都会死 thinking they were going to die at any moment.
当我们去森林时 这一对情侣不见了 And when we went to the forest, these two disappeared...
因为他们对整个实验理解的如此透彻 because they understood the -- the experiment so well...
所以他们明白单独去森林更重要 that they realized that to go off together in the forest was much more important...
比所有小组集体做的实验都重要的多 than any kind of experiment the group could do as a whole.
然后 呃 到那周过了一半时 So, uh, about halfway through the week...
我们无意中闯进森林里的一片空地 we stumbled into a clearing in the forest...
发现他们正相拥而眠 睡的很熟 and the two of them were fast asleep in each other's arms.
那时天刚破晓 我们采来野花放到他们身上 It was around dawn, and we put flowers on them...
好让他们知道我们来过 然后我们悄悄走了 to let them know we'd been there, and then we crept away.
到了在森林的最后一天时 他们俩出现了 And then on the last day of our stay in the forest, these two showed up...
他们和我握手 十分感谢我 and they shook me by my hands, and they thanked me very much...
因为我给了他们如此美好的工作 就是这样 for the wonderful work they'd been able to do, you see.
- [笑声] - 他们能理解整件事意义何在 - [Laughs] - They understood what it was about.
你看 这必然就指向了它关于什么这个问题 I mean, that, of course, poses the question of what was it about.
它某种意义上有关生活 But it has --has something to do with living.
到了最后一天 And then on the final day of our stay in the forest...
沃利 整个小组为我做了件如此美妙的事 the whole group did something so wonderful for me, Wally.
他们安排了一个仪式-一次洗礼 给我的 They arranged a christening -- a baptism -- for me.
他们在城堡里插满了鲜花 And they filled the castle with flowers.
还有那如神迹般的光 And it was just a miracle of light...
因为他们实实在在点了上百支蜡烛和火把 because they had literally set up hundreds of candles and torches.
即使是教堂 也没有比这更美的 I mean, no church could have looked more beautiful.
仪式很简短 有一个人扮演我的教母 There was a simple ceremony, and one of them played the role of my godmother...
另一个人扮演我的教父 and another played the role of my godfather.
我被赐予了一个新的名字 他们称我为杨德鲁斯 And I was given a new name. They called me Yendrush.
有一些人是完全严肃地看待它的 And some of the people took it completely seriously...
还有一些人只是觉得好玩 and some of them found it funny.
而我 我真的觉得自己有了一个新的名字 But, uh, I really felt that I had a new name.
然后我们举行了盛大的宴会 有从野外摘的蓝莓 And then we had an enormous feast, with blueberries picked from the field...
有巧克力 还是某个人从大老远买来的 and chocolate someone had gone a great distance to buy...
还有悬钩子汤和炖兔肉 and raspberry soup and rabbit stew.
我们唱起波兰歌 希腊歌 And we sang Polish songs and Greek songs...
我们每个人都跳舞跳到清晨 and everybody danced for the rest of the night.
- 嗯 - 对了 我有张照片 - Hmm. - Oh, I have a picture.
看 这张是... 让我找找 See, this was -- Let's see.
哦 这儿呢 喏 这是我在森林里的时候 Oh, yeah. This was me in the forest. See?
- 天啊！ - 一点也不错 - God! - That's what I felt like.
[咯咯笑] [Chuckling]
- 我当时就是这个样子 - 天啊 - That's the state I was in. - God.
对了 我记得乔治 呃 告诉我他那时候见过你 Yeah. I remember George, uh, told me he'd seen you around that time.
他说你看上去就像从战场下来 He said you looked like you'd come back from a war.
对 我记得我见过他 他 呃 他问了我很多友好的问题 Yeah, I remember meeting him. He, uh -- He asked me a lot of friendly questions.
我也给你打过电话呀 那个夏天 有没有？ I think I called you up, too, that summer, didn't I?
哈 Huh.
可能当时我不在城里 I think I was out of town.
嗯 说起来 大多数见过我的人都觉得我哪儿不对劲 Yeah, well, most people I met thought there was something wrong with me.
他们嘴上没说 但我能感觉出来 They didn't say that, but I could tell that that was what they thought.
可是... But...
你看 我觉得我所经历的 you see, what I think I experienced... was...
是我生命中第一次 for the first time in my life...
懂得什么才算真正活着 to know what it means to be truly alive.
听着 这是非常恐怖的 Now, that's very frightening...
因为它伴随着一种 死亡意识的觉醒 because with that comes an immediate awareness of death...
因为它们如影随形 'cause they go hand in hand.
就是这种力量驱使沃特·惠特曼写出《草叶集》 You know, the kind of impulse that led to Walt Whitman, that led to Leaves of Grass.
那种与万事万物相通的感觉 That feeling of being connected to everything...
同时意味着与死亡相通 means to also be connected to death.
它是非常可怕的 And that's pretty scary.
但我真的觉得自己仿佛悬于空中 脚不沾地 而非行走 But I really felt as if I were floating above the ground, not walking.
你知道吗 我甚至会去公路上 You know, and I could do things like go out to the highway...
看着信号灯从红色变成绿色 然后想 “美极了” and watch the lights go from red to green and think, "How wonderful."
- [沃利咯咯笑] - 后来 在一个早秋 - [Wally Chuckles] - And then one day, in the early fall...
我去了乡间 走在田野里 I was out in the country, walking in a field...
我忽然听见一个声音说 “小王子” and I suddenly heard a voice say, "Little Prince."
当然 《小王子》 是一本我一直认为 Of course, The Little Prince was a book that I always thought of...
令人生厌 幼稚 甜的发腻的书 as disgusting, childish treacle.
可是我又想 “如果一个声音在田野里降临我” - But still, I thought, "Well, you know, if a voice comes to me in a field" --
这可是我的第一次接触 This was the first voice I had ever heard.
或许我该回去读读它 Maybe I should go and read the book.
巧的是 在同一天早上 我收到一封信 Now, that same morning I'd got a letter...
是波兰小组里的一位年轻女人写来的 from a young woman who'd been in my group in Poland.
在信里 她写到“你支配了我” And in her letter she'd written, "You have dominated me."
你要知道 她的英语非常糟糕 You know, she spoke very awkward English.
后来她又查了词典 把“支配”划掉了 So she'd gone to the dictionary, and she'd crossed out the word "dominated"...
她又写到 “不 我想说的是‘驯服’” and she'd said, "No. The correct word is 'tamed."'
当我回到城里 买了《小王子》开始读它 And then when I went to town and bought the book and started to read it...
我发现“驯服”正是整本书里最核心的词 I saw that "taming" was the most important word in the whole book.
放下书时 我热泪盈眶 这个故事是如此打动我 By the end of the book, I was in tears, I was so moved by the story.
之后我试着去给她写封回信 And then I went and tried to write an answer to her letter...
因为她写给我的信很长 'Cause she'd written me a very long letter.
可我就是想不出合适的话 所以最后我把自己的手 But I just couldn't find the right words, so finally I took my hand...
放到一页纸上 用笔把它勾勒出来 I put it on a piece of paper, I outlined it with a pen...
然后我在中间写下一些话 比如“汝心在我掌中” and I wrote in the center something like, "Your heart is in my hand."
类似的话 Something like that.
完了以后 我又到我的兄弟家游泳时 Then I went over to my brother's house to swim...
因为他住在靠郊区 所以有个游泳池 'cause he lives nearby in the country and he has a pool.
当时他不在家 我去了他的藏书室 And he wasn't home. I went into his library...
他曾在一个拍卖会上买下了 全套收藏的《弥诺陶》 and he had bought at an auction the collected issues of Minotaure.
你知道吗？ 超现实主义者期刊？ 哦 它是二三十年代发行的 一份非常非常棒的 超现实主义杂志 You know, the surrealist magazine? Oh, it's a great, great surrealist magazine of the '20s and '30s.
而我从未-你知道 我认为自己算是个超现实主义者 And I never--You know, I consider myself a bit of a surrealist.
我却从未见过 任何一份《弥诺陶》 I had never, ever seen a copy of Minotaure.
它们都在这儿 按年份顺序摞在一起 And here they all were, bound, year after year.
所以我随手挑了一本出来 我翻开它 So, at random, I picked one out, I opened it up...
那里有一整页字母“A”的复写 and there was a full-page reproduction of the letter "A"...
来自坦尼尔画的《爱丽丝漫游仙境》 from Tenniel's Alice In Wonderland.
我当时思忖- 瞧 这是充满了巧合的一天 And I thought, that --Well, you know, it's been a day of coincidences...
但是作为超现实主义者 对《爱丽丝》感兴趣也是很正常的 but that's not unusual that the surrealists would have been interested in Alice...
我自己就做过一部关于《爱丽丝》的戏剧 And I did a play of Alice.
于是我随手翻到了另一页 So at random, I opened to another page...
那里有四个掌印 and there were four handprints.
一个是安德烈·布列东（超现实主义诗人） 另一个是安德烈·德兰（先锋画家） One was Andre Breton, another was Andre Derain...
第三个是安德烈- 我把它记在哪儿了 the third was Andre -- I've got it written down somewhere.
不是马尔罗（艺术评论家） 好像是一个- 反正是另一个超现实主义者 It's not Malraux. It's, like, someone -- Another of the surrealists.
都是A开头的 第四个就是 安托万·圣埃克苏佩里（飞行家/作家） All A's, and the fourth was Antoine de Saint-Exupery...
正是《小王子》的作者 who wrote The Little Prince.
他们是在把掌印给某种专家看 And they'd shown these handprints to some kind of expert...
而不说明这些都是谁的 without saying whose hands they belonged to.
在埃克苏佩里的掌印下 写着他是个艺术家 And under Exupery's, it said that he was an artist...
并且有着锐利的眼睛 with very powerful eyes...
是个野兽的驯养者 who was a tamer of wild animals.
我当时想 “这太不可思议了” I thought, "This is incredible, you know."
我翻到后面去找发行年份 And I looked back to see when the issue came out.
它是在1934年5月12号上架的 It came out on the newsstands May 12, 1934...
而我正是在1934年5月11号出生的 and I was born during the day of May 11, 1934.
看 这就是一切的开始 关于我 圣埃克苏佩里和《小王子》 So, well, that's what started me on, uh, Saint-Exupery and The Little Prince.
现在 当然如今- Now, of course today--
如今我能感到一种非常法西斯主义的东西 隐藏在《小王子》下面 today I think there's a very fascistic thing under The Little Prince.
你知道 我- 实际上 我觉得有种- You know, I -- Well, no, I think there's a kind of--
[笑声]我觉得书里某些地方 有种党卫军式的集权主义情绪 [Laughing] I think a kind of S.S. Totalitarian sentimentality in there somewhere.
你明白的 有一种- 关于- You know, there's something, you know -- that --
关于热爱 呃- that love of, um --
这么说吧 一种对于汗湿肌肉的阳刚之爱（参考《搏击俱乐部》） Well, that masculine love of a certain kind of oily muscle.
你明白没有？ 我是说 我不能确切指出是哪里 You know what I mean? I mean, I can't quite put my finger on it.
但我完全能想象 某个英俊的党卫军成员 But I can just imagine some beautiful S.S. Man...
- 热爱着《小王子》这本书 - [沃利的笑声] - loving The Little Prince. - [Wally Laughs]
现在 我也不知道为什么 它在我看来不对劲了 它令人厌恶 Now, I don't know why, but there's something wrong with it. It stinks.
[尖声的笑] [High-pitched Laughing]
乔治好像告诉过我 你当时打算排一部 根据《小王子》改编的戏？ Well, didn't George tell me that you were gonna do a play that was based on The Little Prince?
嗯 实际上是这么回事 沃利 Hmm. Well, what happened, Wally...
那个秋天我在纽约 was that fall I was in New York...
结识了一位年轻的日本佛僧 他叫宏山 and I met this young Japanese Buddhist priest named Kozan...
我觉得他就像是 从《仲夏夜之梦》里走出来的小精灵帕克 and I thought he was Puck from the Midsummer Night's Dream.
他有着如此美丽 淡淡的微笑 You know, he had this beautiful, delicate smile.
我当时感觉他 就是小王子 I thought he was the Little Prince.
很自然地 我决定出发去撒哈拉沙漠 So, naturally, I decided to go off to the Sahara desert...
去制作 《小王子》这部戏 带着两个演员和那个日本僧人 to work on The Little Prince with two actors and this Japanese monk.
你当真去了？ You did?
我想说 沃利 我那时还处在一种非常另类的状态 Well, I mean, I was still in a very peculiar state at that time, Wally.
你知道吗 我那时会看着车里的后视镜 You know, I would -- I would look in the rearview mirror of my car...
欣赏自己自言自语 and see little birds flying out of my mouth.
我还记得我那个时期 持续地感到疲倦 And I remember always being exhausted in that period.
我总感到虚弱 你看 我真的不知道自己怎么了 I always felt weak. You know, I really didn't know what was going on with me.
我会一个人连日独坐在乡间 I would just sit out there all alone in the country for days...
除了写日记 什么也不干 and do nothing but write in my diary.
- 还有 我总是想到死亡 - 呃 - And I was always thinking about death. - Huh.
但你还是去了撒哈拉 But you went to the Sahara.
哦 是的 我们踏进了撒哈拉沙漠 Oh, yes, we went off into the desert...
我们穿行在荒漠里 骑着骆驼 And we rode through the desert on camels.
我们骑啊骑啊 And we rode and we rode.
到了晚上 我们会步入 无垠的天穹下 And then at night we would walk out under that enormous sky...
遥望群星 and look at the stars.
我则不断地想着同一些事情 我在家时老想的那些- I just kept thinking about the same things that I was always thinking about at home --
尤其是关于乔姬塔 particularly about Chiquita.
实际上 我只想到了我的婚姻 In fact, I thought about just about nothing but my marriage.
我记得在某个极度黑暗的夜里 And then I remember one incredibly dark night...
我们在一片绿洲上 棕榈树随风舞动 being at an oasis, and there were palm trees moving in the wind...
我听见宏山在很远的地方 用他甜美的男低音歌唱 and I could hear Kozan singing far away in that beautiful bass voice.
我在沙地中尝试循着声音跟过去 And I tried to follow his voice along the sand.
[笑声] [Laughing]
你看 沃利 我还以为他要授我以道 You see, I thought he had something to teach me, Wally.
有时候 我会和他一起冥想 And sometimes I would meditate with him.
有时候我则会走开 独自冥想 Sometimes I'd go off and meditate by myself.
我甚至看到过乔姬塔的幻影 You know, I would see images of Chiquita.
有一次我真的看见她在老去 Once I actually saw her growing old...
她的头发变成灰色 就在我的眼前 and her hair turning gray in front of my eyes.
于是我就这么恸哭 扯破喉咙地叫喊 独自在那片沙丘上 And I would just wail and yell my lungs out out there on the dunes.
总之 沙漠是很可怕的 Anyway, the desert was pretty horrible.
冷的要命 It was pretty cold.
我们在寻找某些东西 但即便找到了 我们也不会认出它 We were searching for something, but we couldn't tell if we were finding anything.
有一次 我和宏山- You know that once Kozan and I --
我们坐在一个沙丘上 一起吃沙子 we were sitting on a dune, and we just ate sand.
不 我们不是在找乐子 是我先开始的 然后他也开始了 No, we weren't trying to be funny. I started, then he started.
我们不停吞下沙子 再吐出来 我们当时就是那么绝望 We just ate sand and threw up. That's how desperate we were.
换句话说 我们不知道自己为什么在这 我们不知道自己在寻找些什么 In other words, we didn't know why we were there. We didn't know what we were looking for.
整个事情看起来 彻底地陷入荒谬 无趣 和空洞中 The entire thing seemed completely absurd, arid and empty.
就好像 呃- 这是最后一次机会什么的 It was like, uh -- like a last chance or something.
呃 Huh.
那后来呢？ So what happened then?
那些日子 Well, in those days...
我全凭心血来潮做事 I went completely on impulse.
所以心血来潮地我把宏山带回纽约 和我们住在一起 So on impulse I brought Kozan back to stay with us in New York...
就在我们从撒哈拉回来后 他住了半年 after we got back from the Sahara, and he stayed for six months.
某种方式上 他真的有点接管了整个家 - 你指的是什么? - And he really sort of took over the whole family, in a way. - What do you mean?
是这样 那时候的家里 显然是缺少了一个中心点 Well, there was certainly a center missing in the house at the time.
显然 缺少的是一位父亲 因为我那时总是想着 There certainly wasn't a father, 'cause I was always thinking...
去西藏或者别的什么鬼事 about going off to Tibet or doing God knows what.
于是他教会了全家去冥想 And so he taught the whole family to meditate...
所有那些他说的事 都关于亚洲 东方 还有他的寺院什么的 and he told them all about Asia and the East and his monastery and everything.
他妥妥地用他满口袋的戏法迷住了所有人 He really captivated everybody with an incredible bag of tricks.
沃利 他真的进化了自己 He had literally developed himself, Wally...
他能全靠手指的支撑 从椅子中立起来 so that he could push on his fingers and rise off out of his chair.
说真的 他可以做到这样- I mean, he could literally go like this --
按着他的手指起来 几乎倒立 You know, push on his fingers and go into like a headstand...
然后只用两根手指撑在那儿 and just hold himself there with two fingers.
还有 如果乔姬塔突然有点颈椎不适 Or if Chiquita would suddenly get a little tension in her neck...
他会马上让她躺在地板上 在她背上踏上踏下 well, he'd immediately have her down on the floor, he'd be walking up and down on her back...
做这种难以置信的按摩 doing these unbelievable massages, you know.
另外 他对孩子们有种神奇的吸引力 And the children found him amazing.
我是说 你看 我们去拜访过一些有子女的朋友 I mean, you know, we'd visit friends who had children...
一眨眼他就会和孩子们玩起来了 and immediately he'd be playing with these children...
他的那种方式 你我都做不到 in a way that, you know, we just can't do.
你看那些孩子们不停地傻笑 傻笑 I mean, those children -- just giggles, giggles, giggles...
笑这个日本和尚在这一堆袍子里做的事 about what this Japanese monk was doing in these holy robes.
他既是个杂耍者 又是一个口技表演家 I mean, he was an acrobat, a ventriloquist...
还是一个魔术师 所有这些 a magician, everything.
你知道吗 最让人惊讶的是 You know, the amazing thing was that...
我不觉得他对孩子们有任何一点关心 I don't think he had any interest in children whatsoever.
一点也没有 我甚至不觉得他喜欢他们 None at all. I don't think he liked them.
当他和我们住在一起时 I mean, you know, when he stayed with us...
第一周里 孩子们的眼睛光围着他转 in the first week, really, the kids were just googly-eyed over him.
几周以后 如果我和乔姬塔出门了 But then a couple of weeks later, Chiquita and I could be out...
如果玛丽娜得了流感 或者高烧华氏104度 and Marina could have flu or a temperature of 104...
他甚至不会走进去向她打招呼的 and he wouldn't even go in and say hello to her.
但他那时接管得越来越多 But he was taking over more and more.
他自己的习惯已经彻底改变了 I mean, his own habits had completely changed.
你知道吗 他开始在白色僧袍下 穿那些雅致的古驰鞋子 You know, he started wearing these elegant Gucci shoes under his white monk's robes.
他吃的简直多极了 He was eating huge amounts of food.
你要知道 他吃的有尼古拉斯两倍多 I mean, he ate twice as much as Nicolas ate, you know?
当我刚遇见这个小个子和尚时 This tiny little Buddhist when I first met him, you know...
他在吃一碗牛奶- 热牛奶泡米饭- was eating a little bowl of milk-- hot milk with rice --
现在他却吃大块的牛排 was now eating huge beef.
真是无奇不有 It was just very strange.
我们尝试在一起工作 可它其实大部分都是 You know, and we had tried working together, but really our work consisted mostly...
我一个人试着去做极为痛苦的修行 像寺庙里的和尚一样 of my trying to do these incredibly painful prostrations that they do in the monastery.
所以 我们实际上就没什么合作 You know, so really we hadn't been working very much.
后来 我们去了乡下 一起去参加圣诞弥撒 Anyway, we were out in the country, and we all went to Christmas mass together.
他穿上了他全副佛教徒服饰 You know, he was all dressed up in his Buddhist finery.
可那是长岛上 一所极为枯燥乏味的天主教堂 And it was one of those -- one of those awful, dreary Catholic churches on Long Island...
神父们谈论的都是共产主义和计划生育 where the priest talks about communism and birth control.
当我身处弥撒中的时候 我就想“我到底是怎么了？” And as I was sitting there in mass, I was wondering, "What in the world is going on?"
我是说 这是我 一个成人 I mean, here I am. I'm a grown man...
还有这个古怪的家伙 住在我的家里 我不工作- and there's this strange person living in the house, and I'm not working --
除了在日记里胡乱涂几首诗 我终日无所事事 You know, I was doing nothing but scribbling a little poetry in my diary.
我也找不到教课的工作了 而且我不知道自己想做什么 And I can't get a job teaching anymore, and I don't know what I want to do.
突然间 一个巨大的怪物出现了 盯着教堂里的人群 When all of a sudden a huge creature appeared, looking at the congregation.
它大概有 我想是6英尺8英寸左右- It was about, I'd say, 6'8" -- something like that, you know...
它是个- 半人 半牛 and it was -- it was half bull, half man...
它的皮肤是蓝色的 and its skin was blue.
它的眼皮里长出紫罗兰 脚趾甲中长出罂粟花 It had violets growing out of its eyelids and poppies growing out of its toenails.
整个弥撒它就那么站在那 And it just stood there for the whole mass.
你看 我就是不能让它消失 I mean, I could not make that creature disappear.
我当时想 “哦 我看到它只是因为我无聊” You know, I thought, "Oh, well. You know, I'm just seeing this 'cause I'm bored."
然后闭上-（眼睛） 我就是不能让他消失 You know, close my-- I could not make that creature go away.
好 我没跟别人说起它 因为这会让人觉得我有病 Okay. Now, I didn't talk with people about it, because they'd think I was weird...
但我觉得这个怪物是来宽慰我的 but I felt that this creature was somehow coming to comfort me...
不知怎么 它出现是要告诉我 that somehow he was appearing to say...
“现在 你也许感到低落 也许你写不出一部戏来 "Well, you may feel low and you might not be able to create a play right now...
可看看平安夜谁来找你了 坚持住 老朋友 "but look at what can come to you on Christmas Eve. Hang on, old friend.
也许我在你眼里很古怪 但在这些古怪的旅途中 "I may seem weird to you, but on these weird voyages...
就会有古怪的生物出现 "weird creatures appear.
这是你旅程的一部分 你一切都好 坚持下去” It's part of the journey. You're okay. Hang in there."
顺便问下 呃 你有没有看过 By the way, uh, did you ever see...
一部叫《蓝色紫罗兰》的戏？ that play, uh, The Violets are Blue?
没有 No.
哦 当你提到紫罗兰 这-让我想起来了 Oh, when you mentioned the violets, it-it reminded me of that.
它是关于 呃嗯 人们 It-It was about, um, people...
被困在- 困在一艘潜水艇里 being, uh, strangled on a -- on a submarine.
嗯 Hmm.
[叹息声]好 这些就是- [咯咯笑]这些就是圣诞节的时候 [Sighs] Well, so that was -- [Chuckles] that was Christmas.
那后来呢？ What happened after that?
- 你真的对这些感兴趣？ - 是的 - Do you really want to hear about all this? - Yeah.
好 那个时候 Well, around that time...
我开始产生去印度的念头 而宏山有天突然离开了 I was beginning to think about going to India. And Kozan suddenly left one day.
那个时候我开始有些非常奇怪的想法 I was beginning to get into a lot of very strange ideas around that time.
比如说 我有了这么个- 我有这样一个主意- Now, for example, I'd developed this -- Well, I got this idea which I --
它在当时非常吸引我- Now, it was very appealing to me at the time, you know --
是这样 我想有面旗帜 一面很大的旗子 which was that I would have a flag, a large flag...
我到哪里工作 它就在哪飘扬 and that wherever I worked, this flag would fly.
如果是一个小组 我们去了郊外 还能铺下旗帜 夜里躺在上面睡觉 Or if we were outside, say, with a group, that the flag could be the thing we lay on at night...
通过工作在旗帜上 睡在旗帜上 and that somehow, between working on this flag and lying on this flag...
旗帜飘扬在我们头顶 this flag flying over us...
这样 这面旗帜就会沾染上某种心灵感应 that the flag would pick up vibrations of a kind...
这样我把它带回家后 这种东西也会留在旗帜里 that would still be in the flag when I brought it home.
所以我去找了个 我听说过的造旗人 So I went down to meet this flag maker that I'd heard about.
那是一个看上去特别耿直的人 And you know, there was this very straightforward-looking guy.
你知道的 既很友善又很健康什么的 英俊高大 金发 You know, very sweet, really healthy-looking and everything. Nice big, blond.
他有村子里一间漂亮干净的阁楼 放满了可爱的好看的旗子 And he had a beautiful, clean loft down in the village with lovely, happy flags.
我当时满脑子都是 《小王子》 所以跟他聊了《小王子》 And I was all into The Little Prince, and I talked to him about The Little Prince...
聊那些冒险 无话不说 我告诉他我想用旗子做什么 它应该是什么样的 These adventures and everything, how I needed the flag and what the flag should be.
他显得很感兴趣 He seemed to really connect with it.
所以 两周以后 我又回来了 So, two weeks later, I came back.
他向我展示了一面旗子 而我觉得它十分古怪 He showed me a flag that I thought was very odd, you know...
因为我本来- 这么说吧 'cause I had, you know -- well, you know...
我本来期待一种温和又抒情的效果 I had expected something gentle and lyrical.
可这面旗子 有某种过于强大的东西 There was something about this that was so powerful...
几乎就是压倒性的 it was almost overwhelming.
它上面甚至有藏教万字（梵文卍） And it did include the Tibetan swastika.
他在你的旗子上弄了个万字？ He put a swastika in your flag?
不 它是藏教万字 不是纳粹万字 No, it was the Tibetan swastika, not the Nazi swastika.
它是最古老的藏族符号之一 It's one of the most ancient Tibetan symbols.
你知道吗 这旗子就是那么奇怪 And it was just strange, you know?
我把它带回家 因为我那个主意 But I brought it home, because my idea with this flag...
是在我去- 在我去印度之前有的 was that before I left -- you know, before I left for India...
我想让几个和我亲近的人 把旗子拿到房间和他们一起睡 I wanted several people who were close to me to have this flag in the room for the night...
然后 在早上缝一些东西到上面去 to sleep with it, you know, and then in the morning to sew something into the flag.
所以我把它带去给玛丽娜 我说 “嘿 瞧这个 你觉得怎么样？” So I took the flag into Marina, and I said, "Hey, look at this. What do you think of this?"
而她说“这是什么鬼东西啊？太可怕了” 我说“它就是面旗子” And she said, "What is that? That's awful." I said, "It's a flag."
她又说“我不喜欢它” And she said, "I don't like it."
我说“我打算让你带着它过夜 不知你是否愿意” I said, "I kind of thought you might like to spend the night with it, you know."
但她真的觉得这旗子太可怕了 But she really thought the flag was awful.
然后 去印度前 乔姬塔为我准备了一个派对 So then Chiquita threw this party for me before I left for India...
公寓里满是客人 and the apartment was filled with guests.
乔姬塔忽然说“旗子 旗子 你的旗子呢” And at one point Chiquita said, "The flag, the flag. Where's the flag?"
我说“哦 对了 旗子” 于是我拿来它 展开它 And I said, "Oh, yeah. The flag." And I go and get the flag, and I open it up.
乔姬塔突然脸色苍白 冲出了房间吐了 Chiquita goes absolutely white and runs out of the room and vomits.
所以派对只好暂停 之后就散了 So the party just comes to a halt and breaks up.
第二天我又把它给了一位年轻女士 And then the next day I gave it to this young woman...
是原来波兰小组中的一员 现在住在纽约 who'd been in my group in Poland, who was now in New York.
之前发生的事情 我全没跟她说起过 I didn't tell her anything about any of this.
早上五点钟 她打电话给我说 At 5:00 in the morning, she called me up and she said...
“我现在就去见你 马上” 我想“哦 天呐” "I gotta come and see you right away." I thought, "Oh, God."
她来了 她说“我看到一些东西- 我看到这旗子有些不好的东西” She came up, and she said, "I saw things -- I saw things around this flag.
“听着 我知道你很顽固 我知道你想带着这玩意走” "Now, I know you're stubborn, and I know you want to take this thing with you...
“但我还是建议你 挖个洞把它扔进去 "but if you'd follow my advice, you'd put it in a hole in the ground...
烧了它 埋了它 因为魔鬼就在它里面” and burn it and cover it with earth, cause the devil's in it."
我从没带它走 I never took the flag with me.
实际上 我把旗子给了她 而她-她办了一场法事 In fact, I gave it to her, and, uh, she -- she had a ceremony with it...
半年之后 在法国 和几个朋友 six months later, in France, with some friends...
一起把那面旗子烧了 in which, uh, they did burn it.
[笑声] 我的天啊 [Laughing] God.
这真的真的很神奇 That's really, really amazing.
那 你后来去了印度没有？ So, did you ever go to India?
哦 去了 我-我去了印度 沃利 在春天去的 Oh, yes, I -- I went to India in the spring, Wally...
回到家的时候 我感觉一切都不对 and I came back home feeling all wrong.
我是说 我是去过印度 可我只感到自己是个游客 I mean, you know, I'd been to India, and I'd just felt like a tourist.
我什么也没能发现 I'd found nothing.
所以我- 我在长岛 和家里人一起度夏 So I was -- I was spending, uh, the summer on Long Island with my family...
我听说苏格兰有这么个社区 叫芬德霍恩 and I heard about this community in Scotland called Findhorn...
那里的人和植物唱歌 说话 冥想 where people sang and talked and meditated with plants.
它的组建者 确切说是几个 中产阶级的英格兰和苏格兰怪人 And it was founded by several rather middle-class English and Scottish eccentrics.
他们有些是知识分子 有些不是 Some of them intellectuals, and some of them not.
我还听说他们在 贫瘠的土壤里耕种 And I'd heard that they'd grown things in soil...
贫瘠到本应该什么都长不出 因为那几乎就是沙滩 that supposedly nothing can grow in, 'cause it's almost beach soil...
他们还造出了-不是造 是种出了世界上最大的花椰菜 and that they'd built -- not built -- they'd grown the largest cauliflowers in the world...
还有卷心菜之类 and there are sort of cabbages.
他们还种树 一些根本不可能在英国列岛上生长的树 And they've grown trees that can't grow in the British Isles.
所以我去了那儿 沃利 它真是个神奇的地方 So I went there. I mean, it is an amazing place, Wally.
你看 如果有虫子危害作物 I mean, if there are insects bothering the plants...
那里的人会和虫子们沟通 订下协议 they will talk with the insects and, you know, make an agreement...
他们会另立一小块菜地 专门给虫子吃 by which they'll set aside a special patch of vegetables just for the insects...
然后虫子们就会不再侵扰主要区域了 and then the insects will leave the main part alone.
- 喝 - 就是此类的事情 - Huh. - Things like that.
他们做的一切都如此美妙 And everything they do they do beautifully.
那里的建筑简直闪闪发光 I mean, the buildings just shine.
比如说 冰箱 火炉 汽车-都有自己的名字 And I mean, for instance, the icebox, the stove, the car-- they all have names.
如此你就不会对待海伦 那个冰箱 And since you wouldn't treat Helen, the icebox...
比对待玛格丽特 你的妻子 少一些尊重 with any less respect than you would Margaret, your wife...
你会保证海伦和玛格丽特一样整洁干净 给予同等的尊重 you know, you make sure that Helen is as clean as Margaret, or treated with equal respect.
[沃利咯咯笑] [Wally Giggles]
记得当我在那儿的时候 我会去树林里 And when I was there, Wally, I remember being in the woods...
我会看一片叶子 而且会真的看见某种东西 and I would look at a leaf, and I would actually see that thing...
活在树叶里的东西 that is alive in that leaf.
我记得自己穿过树林飞奔 有多快跑多快 And then I remember just running through the woods as fast as I could...
一边爆发出大笑来 with this incredible laugh coming out of me...
在那种状态下 你知道么 笑声与眼泪真的好像融为一体 and really being in that state, you know, where laughter and tears seem to merge.
我是说 它的的确确让我顿悟了 I mean, it absolutely blasted me open.
当我从芬德霍恩出来后 不停地产生幻觉 When I came out of Findhorn, I was hallucinating nonstop.
我把云彩看成怪物 I was seeing clouds as creatures.
我看到飞机上的人都长着动物的脸 The people on the airplane all had animals' faces.
我当时正在旅行 就像突然掉入了威廉·布莱克的世界 I mean, I was on a trip. It was like being in a William Blake world suddenly.
万事万物都在膨胀着 Things were exploding.
所以我当即去了贝尔格莱德 因为我想和葛罗托斯基聊聊 So immediately I went to Belgrade, 'cause I wanted to talk to Grotowski.
我们在午夜聚在一起了 在我酒店的房间里 Grotowski and I got together at midnight in my hotel room...
我们喝着速溶咖啡 盛咖啡的是我剃须膏的盖子 and we drank instant coffee out of the top of my shaving cream...
我们从午夜一直聊到第二天上午11点 and we talked from midnight until 11:00 the next morning.
- 天呐 他说什么了？ - 什么也没说！ - God. What did he say? - Nothing!
只有我在说话 他一个字也没说 I talked. He didn't say a word.
这之后-之后我觉得 And --And then I guess really...
最后一次 值得一提的这种体验 发生在秋天 the last big experience of this kind took place that fall.
那是在长岛的蒙塔克 It was out at Montauk on Long Island...
参与的只有9个人 大部分是男人 and there were only about nine of us involved, mostly men.
我们借用了迪克·艾夫登的地产（即理查德·艾夫登，摄影家） 就在蒙塔克的郊外 And we borrowed Dick Avedon's property out at Montauk.
那儿的乡村 简直和《呼啸山庄》里的一样 And the country out there is like Heathcliff country.
完全是一片荒凉 It's absolutely wild.
我们打算干这么件事- What we wanted to do was we wanted to take, you know --
我们打算赶上万灵节 万圣节 We wanted to take All Souls' Eve, Halloween...
利用这个特殊的时刻 尝试某种新的东西 and use it as a point of departure for something.
所以 我们每个人都为彼此准备了一些活动 So each one of us prepared some sort of event for the others...
它们都以某种方式符合万灵节的精神 somehow in the spirit of All Souls' Eve.
而最重大的一个活动 是有三个人 But the biggest event was three of the people...
在每个夜里凌晨时分 都会消失不见 kept disappearing in the middle of the night each night...
我们知道他们有个很不简单的计划 and we knew they were preparing something big...
但搞不清到底是什么 but we didn't know what.
接着 万圣节的午夜来了 在那些峭壁上 在黯淡的月色里 And midnight on Halloween, under a dark moon, above these cliffs...
所有人都被通知 在悬崖顶端集合 然后我们会被带去某处 we were all told to gather at the topmost cliff and that we would be taken somewhere.
我们都去了 我们等啊等啊 夜里非常冷 And we did. And we waited, and it was very, very cold.
然后 他们三个-海伦 比尔 弗莱德 -穿一袭白色出现了 And then the three of them -- Helen, Bill and Fred -- showed up wearing white.
那是些他们用床单做成的袍子 -看上去有些毛骨悚然 并不好笑 You know, something they'd made out of sheets -- looked a little spooky, not funny.
然后 他们把我们带往一所房子的地下室 房子本身已经烧毁了 And they took us into the basement of this house that had burned down on the property.
在这个废弃的地下室中 摆着一张他们做的 带长凳的桌子 And in this ruined basement, they had set up a table with benches they'd made.
桌子上 放有纸 笔 葡萄酒 和玻璃杯 And on this table they had laid out paper, pencils, wine and glasses.
我们被要求坐在桌旁 写下自己的遗嘱 And we were all asked to sit at the table and to make out our last will and testament.
你明白吗 想想我们对这个世界 或是对最亲近的人 You know, to think about and write down whatever our last words were to the world...
还有什么最后要说的 or to somebody we were very close to.
那可真不是件容易的事 And that's quite a task.
我想了至少有一个或一个半小时 或许两个小时 I must have been there for about an hour and a half or so, maybe two.
然后 一次一个地 他们会请某个人跟他们走 And then one at a time they would ask one of us to come with them...
而我是最后一个 and I was one of the last.
他们来到我跟前 给我蒙上遮眼布 And they came for me, and they put a blindfold on me...
带我跑过那些田野- 两个人 and they ran me through these fields -- two people.
然后带我到了某个制陶窝棚- 一种小棚子 And they'd found a kind of potting shed -- you know, a kind of shed, on the grounds...
很小很小的一间屋子 曾经用来放工具的 a little tiny room that had once had tools in it.
他们领我下台阶 到地下室里 And they took me down the steps, into this basement...
整个房间充斥着刺眼的白光 and the room was just filled with harsh white light.
然后 他们让我脱光衣服 把身上值钱的财物都给他们 Then they told me to get undressed and give them all my valuables.
之后 我被放到一张桌子上 他们用海绵 从上往下给我擦洗 Then they put me on a table, and they sponged me down.
当时 我脑中开始不断闪过 死亡集中营和秘密警察 Well, you know, I just started flashing on-on-on death camps and secret police.
我不知道其他人怎样 反正我是不能自已的痛哭起来 I don't know what happened to the other people, but I just started to cry uncontrollably.
最后 他们擦完了我的脚 给我拍了张照片 一丝不挂的 Uh, then-then they got me to my feet and they took photographs of me, naked.
然后就这么光溜溜的 我再次戴上眼罩 跟他们跑过森林 And then naked, again blindfolded, I was run through these forests...
来到一顶床单做的帐篷里 地上也铺着床单 and we came to a kind of tent made of sheets, with sheets on the ground.
里面全是裸体的人 And there were all these naked bodies...
挤作一团来抵御寒冷 huddling together for warmth against the cold.
他们在这可能已经待了有一个小时了 Must have been left there for about an hour.
于是再一次 我们一个接一个 被领了出去 And then again, one by one, one at a time, we were led out.
还是带着眼罩 The blindfold was put on...
我感到自己被放到某种担架上 and I felt myself being lowered onto something like a stretcher.
在担架上 我被抬了很长一段路 很慢地 穿过那些森林 And the stretcher was carried a long way, very slowly, through these forests...
之后我感到自己又被挪进了地下 and then I felt myself being lowered into the ground.
他们 实际上 挖了6个坟墓 They had, in fact, dug six graves...
8英尺深 eight feet deep.
我感到有木板被盖在我身上 And then I felt these pieces of wood being put on me.
沃利 我我无法向你描述 我经历了怎样的感觉 And I cannot tell you, Wally, what I was going through.
担架被放进墓中 And then the stretcher was lowered into the grave...
木板盖到我身上 and then this wood was put on me...
我的财物被塞进我手里 and then my valuables were put on me, in my hands.
他们还带了 某种床单或帆布 And they'd taken, you know, a kind of sheet or canvas...
他们把布扯开大概这么多 蒙在我头上 and they'd stretched about this much above my head...
他们往坟墓里铲土 and then they shoveled dirt into the grave...
我真的有种被活埋的感觉 so that I really had the feeling of being buried alive.
在墓里过了大概半个小时后- And after being in the grave for about half an hour--
我其实不知道 自己在里面躺了多久- I mean, I didn't know how long I'd be in there --
我又被挖出来 抬出坟墓 I was resurrected, lifted out of the grave...
去掉了眼罩 跑过田野 blindfold taken off, and run through these fields.
我们来到一大圈篝火旁 还有音乐和热葡萄酒 And we came to a great circle of fire, with music and hot wine...
每个人都跳舞跳到清晨 and everyone danced until dawn.
[咯咯笑声] 到了清晨 [Chuckling] And then at dawn...
每个人都尽其所能 把那些坟墓填上了 to the best of our ability, we filled up the graves...
之后就回了纽约 and went back to New York.
这也是我最后一次大事件了 一切的结尾 And that was really the last big event. I mean, that was the end.
你看 我开始意识到 I mean, you know, I began to realize...
自己再也不想做这些事了 你明白吗？ I just didn't want to do these things anymore, you know?
我体会到某种平和宁静 就像《白鲸》里 I felt sort of becalmed, you know, like that chapter in Moby Dick...
风息帆歇的那一章 Where the wind goes out of the sails.
去年冬天 我想也没怎么想 And then last winter, without, uh, thinking about it very much...
就去见了一位经纪人 告诉他我打算再次执导戏剧 I went to see this agent I know to tell him I was interested in directing plays again.
实际上 他似乎有些惊讶 Actually, he seemed a little surprised...
看到这个瑞普·凡·温克尔还活着（华盛顿·欧文小说人物） to see that Rip Van Winkle was still alive.
嗯 Mmm.
我的天 God.
我才知道它们这么小 I didn't know they were so small.
[安德烈咯咯笑] [Andre Chuckles]
你看 坦白说 Well, you know, frankly...
这整个故事 让我有点厌恶 如果你真想知道的话 I'm sort of repelled by the whole story, if you really want to know.
- 此话怎讲？ - 啊 你看- - What? - Ah, you know --
我还当自己是谁呀？ Who did I think I was, you know?
这就好像 某个被宠坏的公主的故事 I mean, that's the story of some kind of spoiled princess, you know.
我把自己当谁了 伊朗的国王吗？ Who did I think I was, the Shah of Iran?
沃利 我真的怀疑 像我自己这样的人 和阿尔伯特·斯佩尔有什么不同 You know, I really wonder if people such as myself are really not Albert Speer, Wally.
- 你知道吗 希特勒的建筑师 阿尔伯特·斯佩尔？ - 谁？ - You know, Hitler's architect, Albert Speer? - What?
听着 关于他 我最近思考了很多 因为 呃 我觉得自己就是斯佩尔 No, I've been thinking a lot about him recently because, uh, I think I am Speer.
而且我觉得 该是时候我也被抓起来 被审判了 And I think it's time that I was caught and tried the way he was.
你在说些什么啊？ What are you talking about?
听我说 他是个极其有教养的人 一个建筑师 艺术家 Well, you know, he was a very cultivated man, an architect, an artist, you know...
所以他觉得平常的生活规则 也不适用于他 so he thought the ordinary rules of life didn't apply to him either.
我是说 我真的感到自己做的一切 I mean, I really feel that everything I've done...
糟糕极了 简直糟透了 is horrific, just horrific.
天呐 为什么呢？ My God. But why?
你看-沃利 我见过很多死亡 就在这过去的几年中 You see --You see, I've seen a lot of death in the last few years, Wally...
关于死亡 有一件事是非常确定的- and there's one thing that's for sure about death --
你必须独自面对 你知道 那是必然的 You do it alone, you see. That seems quite certain, you see.
我意识到 围在你灵床前的人 对你来说没任何意义 That I've seen. That the people around your bed mean nothing.
你的忏悔没有任何意义 无论如何 你必须独自完成它 Your reviews mean nothing. Whatever it is, you do it alone.
所以问题是 当我大限将至时 我将是怎样的一个人？ And so the question is, when I get on my deathbed, what kind of a person am I gonna be?
如果到那时 还是像我前几年那样生活 And I'm just very dubious about the kind of person who would have lived his life...
就太不靠谱了 those last few years the way I did.
为什么你会这样想？ Why should you feel that way?
听着 沃利 在过去的几个月里 我经历了很艰难的一个时期 You see, I've had a very rough time in the last few months, Wally.
家里3个不同的人 同时住进了医院 Three different people in my family were in the hospital at the same time.
然后我母亲去世了 Then my mother died.
之后玛利亚的背出了些问题 我们都担心死了 Then Marina had something wrong with her back, and we were terribly worried about her.
你看 所以-所以 现在我觉得非常痛苦 You know, so -- so, I mean, I'm feeling very raw right now.
我是说-我睡不着觉 我的神经垮了 I mean, uh -- I mean, I can't sleep, my nerves are shot.
任何事情都能影响我 I mean, I'm affected by everything.
上周 有个非常杰出的挪威导演 来和我吃晚饭 You know, la-last week I had this really nice director from Norway over for dinner...
我们相识多年 and he's someone I've known for years and years...
他还是个我挺喜欢的人 and he's somebody that I think I'm quite fond of.
而我坐在那儿 想的都是 他是个多么傲慢的 拒人于千里之外的 And I was sitting there just thinking that he was a pompous, defensive...
既保守又爱摆架子的人 他只关心剧院的事 conservative stuffed shirt who was only interested in the theater.
他简直说个不停 他母亲曾是个有名气的挪威喜剧演员 He was talking and talking. His mother had been a famous Norwegian comedienne.
我发现那个晚上 他说“我记得我妈” 至少有400次之多 I realized he had said "I remember my mother" at least 400 times during the evening.
他说着一个又一个 关于他母亲的故事 And he was telling story after story about his mother.
这些故事我以前就听过20回了 You know, I'd heard these stories 20 times in the past.
他一声不吭喝着整瓶的波本威士忌 He was drinking this whole bottle of bourbon very quietly.
他的笑声讨厌极了 His laugh was so horrible.
我能听见他的笑- 笑声里的那种痛苦 那种空洞 You know, I could hear his laugh -- the pain in that laugh, the hollowness.
作为那个女人的儿子 给他造成的这些 You know, what being that woman's son had done to him.
所以 到了某个时候 我不得不请他离开- 当然 谨慎得体地 You know, so at a certain point I just had to ask him to leave -- nicely, you know.
我告诉他我明天要早起 因为我实在忍受不了了 I told him I had to get up early the next morning, 'cause it was so horrible.
他当时 就好像死在了我的起居室里 It was just as if he had died in my living room.
之后我去了浴室哭 因为我感到自己失去了一位朋友 You know, then I went into the bathroom and cried 'cause I felt I'd lost a friend.
在他走后 我打开电视 And then after he'd gone, I turned the television on...
屏幕上 有个家伙刚赢了个 什么-什么的 and there was this guy who had just won the something-something.
某个体育比赛- 一张巨大的支票 和一个很大的银奖杯 Some sports event -- some kind of a great big check and some kind of huge silver bottle.
而他-他不能把支票塞进奖杯里 And he, you know -- he couldn't stuff the check in the bottle...
于是他把奖杯放到鼻子跟前 假装那是他的脸 and he put the bottle in front of his nose and pretended it was his face.
他甚至没有真的在听 采访他的那个家伙说话 He wasn't really listening to the guy who was interviewing him...
但他却能对他的朋友们不怀好意地微笑 我看着这个人就想 but he was smiling malevolently at his friends, and I looked at that guy and I thought...
“这是一个多么讨厌的 空洞的 玩弄他人的鼠辈” "What a horrible, empty, manipulative rat."
然后我又想“那个人就是我” [笑声] Then I thought, "That guy is me." [Laughing]
还有 昨天晚上 是我和乔姬塔结婚20周年纪念日 Then last night actually, you know, it was our 20th wedding anniversary...
我带她去看 一出关于比莉·荷莉戴（爵士乐手）的戏 and I took Chiquita to see this show about Billie Holiday.
我看着戏中 那些做演艺生意的人 对荷莉戴一无所知 完全不懂 I looked at these show business people who know nothing about Billie Holiday, nothing.
你看 他们真的算是 某种意义上 知识分子爬虫 You see, they were really kind of, in a way, intellectual creeps.
我突然就有了这种感触 我是说 我当时坐在那儿 哭完了大部分的演出 And I suddenly had this feeling. I mean, you know I was just sitting there, crying through most of the show.
我突然就有了这种感触 我也不过是他们中的一个 And I suddenly had this feeling I was just as creepy as they were...
我的整个人生 都是虚伪的赝品 and that my whole life had been a sham...
我甚至没那个胆量 去做比莉·荷莉戴 and I didn't have the guts to be Billie Holiday either.
我是说 我真切地感到 自己被荡涤一清 擦除殆尽 I mean, I really feel that I'm just washed up, wiped out.
我感到自己一直在挥霍生命 I feel I've just squandered my life.
安德烈 你怎么可以这样说自己？ Andre, now, how can you say something like that?
我是说- I mean --
这个么 你知道我现在 可能处在非常情绪化的状态 沃利 Well, you know, I may be in a very emotional state right now, Wally...
但自从我回家后 我就不断发觉 我们生活的世界 but since I've come back home I've just been finding the world we're living in...
越来越令人心烦 more and more upsetting.
你看 上周的一个下午 我去了公众剧院 I mean, last week I went down to the Public Theater one afternoon.
当我走进去时 我总是向所有人问好 You know, when I walked in, I said hello to everybody...
因为我认识他们 他们也都认识我 那儿的人总是非常友善 'cause I know them all, and they all know me, they're always very friendly.
你知道吗？ 有7到8个人 告诉我我看起来好极了 You know that seven or eight people told me how wonderful I looked?
只有一个人-一个女人 负责选角办公室的 她说 And then one person -- one -- a woman who runs the casting office, said...
“天啊 你看上去糟透了 出了什么事吗？” "Gee, you look horrible. Is something wrong?"
所以 她-我们开始聊天 当然 我开始告诉她发生的事情 Now, she --You know, we started talking. Of course, I started telling her things.
突然她就哭了 因为她的一位80高龄的婶婶 And she suddenly burst into tears because an aunt of hers who's 80...
也是她非常喜欢的婶婶 因为白内障进了医院 后来治好了 whom she's very fond of, went into the hospital for a cataract, which was solved.
但有个护士非常不负责任 她没有把床栏立起来 But the nurse was so sloppy, she didn't put the bed rails up...
所以老太太从床上摔下来了 现在彻底的残疾了 and so the aunt fell out of bed and is now a complete cripple.
你看 我们聊了关于医院的事 So you know, we were talking about hospitals.
这个女人 由于她的处境- Now, you know, this woman, because of who she is --
因为她这件事是最近 刚刚才发生的 You know, 'cause this had happened to her very, very recently.
- 她就能够完全清楚地洞察我 - 嗯 - She could see me with complete clarity. - Uh-huh.
虽然她并不知道我经历过什么 She didn't know anything about what I'd been going through.
可其他人 他们看见的 只有我晒黑的皮肤 或者这件衬衫 But the other people, what they saw was this tan, or this shirt...
或者是我的衬衫和肤色搭配的很好 or the fact that the shirt goes well with the tan.
所以他们才会说“天啊 你看上去好极了” So they said, "Gee, you look wonderful."
他们活在一个疯狂的幻想世界中 Now, they're living in an insane dreamworld.
他们根本没有在看 这让我感到非常奇怪 They're not looking. That seems very strange to me.
对 因为他们不知怎么 目中无物 Right, because they just didn't see anything, somehow...
除了 呃 那些他们想看见的小事 except, uh, the few little things that they wanted to see.
没错 你看 这就像 我母亲去世前不久的一件事 Yeah, you know, it's like what happened just before my mother died.
我们去医院看望母亲 You know, we'd gone to the hospital to see my mother...
我进了病房 and I went in to see her...
她看上去非常不好 像是奥斯维辛或达豪集中营的幸存者 and I saw this woman who looked as bad as any survivor of Auschwitz or Dachau.
然后我出来在大厅里 试着安慰我父亲 And I was out in the hall sort of comforting my father...
这时 我母亲的医生 胳膊疾病方面的专家 when a doctor who was a specialist in a problem she had with her arm...
走进病房 又欢喜地走出来 went into her room and came out just beaming.
他说“老弟 我们不是该感到高兴么？ And he said, "Boy, don't we have a lot of reason to feel great?
她进展的不是很顺利吗？” Isn't it wonderful how she's coming along?"
在他眼中 就只有那条胳膊 那是他唯一看到的 Now, all he saw was the arm. That's all he saw.
这又是一个活在梦里的人 Now, here's another person who's existing in a dream.
除此之外 他还是某种凶手 Who, on top of that, is a kind of butcher...
他犯下某种家族谋杀罪 who's committing a kind of familial murder...
因为当他走出病房时 他从心灵上杀死了我们 because when he comes out of that room, he psychically kills us...
他把我们带进一个幻想世界 by taking us into a dream world...
让我们感到迷惑和恐惧 where we become confused and frightened...
因为片刻前 我们看见一个将死之人 'cause the moment before, we saw somebody who already looked dead...
现在又来了这么个专家 告诉我们一切都好 and now here comes a specialist who tells us they're in wonderful shape.
我是说 这些简直把我父亲逼疯了 I mean, they were literally driving my father crazy.
他是位82岁的老人家了 又非常容易激动 I mean, you know, here's an 82-year-old man who's very emotional...
你知道 如果你刚走进去 看到这个人活不久了 and you know, and if you go in one moment, and you see the person's dying...
你又不想失去他们 然后一个医生 五分钟以后出来 and you don't want them to die, and then a doctor comes out five minutes later...
告诉你病人看起来很好- and tells you they're in wonderful shape --
你明白吗 你真的会疯掉的 I mean, you know, you can go crazy.
- 是的 我明白你所说的 - 医生根本没看见我母亲 - Yeah. I know what you mean. - I mean, the doctor didn't see my mother.
公共剧院的人根本没看见我 The people at the Public Theater didn't see me.
我们只不过在迷雾中游荡 I mean, we're just walking around in some kind of fog.
我认为我们全都活在恍惚中 我们像僵尸一样四处走动 I think we're all in a trance. We're walking around like zombies.
我不-我甚至不认为我们能意识到自我 或我们对事物的反应 I don't -- I don't think we're even aware of ourselves or our own reaction to things.
我们-我们只是终日碌碌 如同没有知觉的机器 We --We're just going around all day like unconscious machines...
与此同时 还有种种狂躁 忧虑 和不安 and meanwhile there's all of this rage and worry and uneasiness...
不停地在我们体内 积聚啊积聚啊 just building up and building up inside us.
一点没错 它一直积聚着 That's right. It just builds up, uh...
然后莫名其妙地蹦出来 and then it just leaps out inappropriately.
我记得 有次我演一出戏 I mean, I remember when I was, uh, acting in this play...
它改编自布尔加科夫的《大师与玛格丽特》 based on The Master and Margarita by Bulgakov.
我扮演猫 And I was playing the part of the cat.
他们在制作猫服时遇上一些困难 But they had trouble, uh, making up my cat suit...
所以直到首映当晚我才拿到它 so I didn't get it delivered to me till the night of the first performance.
尤其是头部-我是说 我从没试穿过 Particularly the head -- I mean, I'd never even had a chance to try it on.
4个我的演员同事 来到我跟前 And about four of my fellow actors actually came up to me...
他们说的那些话 让我忍不住要怀疑 and they said these things which I just couldn't help thinking...
是故意要整垮我 were attempts to destroy me.
有一个说 “哦 那个头嘛 You know, one of them said, uh, "Oh, well, now that head...
会彻底影响你在演出时的听力” "will totally change your hearing in the performance.
“你可能会听啥都不一样了” "You may hear everything completely differently...
“可能会很恼火哦” "and it may be very upsetting.
“我曾经在演戏时戴过护耳 "Now, I was once in a performance where I was wearing earmuffs...
结果一个字都听不见” and I couldn't hear anything anybody said."
另一个人说“哦 我在台上的时候 就算带顶帽子 And then another one said, "Oh, you know, whenever I wear even a hat on stage...
都想要晕倒” I tend to faint."
这些谈论 简直就充满敌意 I mean, those remarks were just full of hostility...
因为 你看 如果我照这些人说的 我走上台去 because, I mean, if I'd listened to those people, I would have gone out there on stage...
我会什么也听不见 我会想晕倒 and I wouldn't have been able to hear anything, and I would have fainted.
但这些敌意 根本就不合时宜 But the hostility was completely inappropriate...
因为 实际上他们都喜欢我 because, in fact, those people liked me.
我是说 这些敌意只是某种 I mean, that hostility was just some feeling that was, you know...
以往某些体验中残留下的情绪 left over from some previous experience.
因为 不知怎么 在我们今天的社会生存里 Because somehow in our social existence today...
表达我们情感的方式 we're only allowed to express our feelings, uh...
只能是古怪的和扭曲的 weirdly and indirectly.
如果你直接地表达出来 没有人能受得了 If you express them directly, everybody goes crazy.
那么 你有没有表达你的感受？ 关于他们的说三道四？ Well, did you express your feelings about what those people said to you?
没有[咯咯笑] 你看 我甚至不清楚我是什么感觉 直到事后再去想它 No. [Chuckles] I mean, I didn't even know what I felt till I thought about it later.
充其量 在那种情况下 And I mean, at the most, you know, in a situation like that, uh...
即便我清楚自己的感受 even if I had known what I felt...
如果我确实很不爽的话 我会说一些 I might say something, if I'm really annoyed...
比如“哦 是啊 那真是再好不过 like, uh, "Oh, yeah. Well, that's just fascinating...
还有 呃 我今晚可能要晕倒了 跟你似的” and, uh, I probably will faint tonight, just as you did."
我处理的方式和你一模一样 I do just the same thing myself.
我们不能坦率 所以最后变成 说出最古怪的话来 We can't be direct, so we end up saying the weirdest things.
我记得有天晚上 那是我母亲去世后的两周 I mean, I remember a night. It was a couple of weeks after my mother died.
我的情绪还非常糟糕 And I was in pretty bad shape.
有3个比较亲密的朋友 和我一起吃晚饭 And I had dinner with three relatively close friends...
其中两个和我母亲挺熟 two of whom had known my mother quite well...
三个人认识我都很久了 and all three of whom had known me for years.
你知道吗 我们一起度过一整个晚上 我却没有任何机会 You know that we went through that entire evening without my being able to...
哪怕一小会儿 谈到关于- for a moment, get anywhere near what --
倒不是我想坐到那 过这么个沉闷的夜晚 Not that I wanted to sit and have this dreary evening...
我好谈论所有这些痛苦啦 我所承受的种种啦 in which I was talking about all this pain that I was going through and everything.
真的没有 一点也没有 Really, not at all.
但事实是没一个人能说句 But the fact that nobody could say...
“天啊 真为你母亲感到遗憾” 或是“你感觉好点了吗？” "Gee, what a shame about your mother" or "How are you feeling?"
就好像什么也没发生一样 他们全都在说说笑笑 It was just as if nothing had happened. They were all making these jokes and laughing.
实际上 我感到相当抓狂 I got quite crazy, as a matter of fact.
有个人 提到了某个我不怎么喜欢的家伙 One of these people mentioned a certain man whom I don't like very much...
我就开始嘲笑他是怎么 刚被人在布朗克斯河上找到 and I started screeching about how he had just been found in the Bronx River...
他的老二因为淋病掉下来了 以及各种荒唐的事情 and his penis had dropped off from gonorrhea, and all kinds of insane things.
当我回家以后 我才意识到 自己是多么迫切地想打破僵局 And later, when I got home, I realized I'd just been desperate to break through this ice.
没错 Yeah.
你知道吗 沃利 如果你 把相同的情境放在一个藏族家庭中- I mean, do you realize, Wally, if you brought that situation into a Tibetan home --
那可就太有意思了 他们根本无法理解的 That'd be just so far out. I mean, they wouldn't be able to understand it.
因为这原本就- 就是如此古怪 沃利 That would be simply-- simply so weird, Wally.
如果四个藏族人齐聚一堂 其中的一位刚经历了不幸 If four Tibetans came together, and tragedy had just struck one of the ones...
而他们整个晚上都在- [大声地笑] and they spent the whole evening going -- [Loud Laughing]
你看 藏族人会把它视作- I mean, you know, Tibetans would have looked at that...
会认为这是最不可思议的举止 And would have thought that was the most unimaginable behavior.
- 但对我们来说 这却是司空见惯的 - 嗯哼 - But for us, that's common behavior. - Mm-hmm.
说真的 非洲人 可能会把我们四个人串在矛上 I mean, really, the -- the Africans would have probably put their spears into all four of us...
因为这让他们抓狂 'cause it would have driven them crazy.
他们会把我们看做 某种危险动物之类的 They would have thought we were dangerous animals or something like that.
- 没错 - 我的意思是 这绝对是种病态的行为 - Right. - I mean, that's absolutely abnormal behavior.
两位先生 一切是否妥当？ Is everything all right, gentlemen?
- 很好 - 好着呢 - Great. - Yeah.
但这些对我们来说 却是典型的晚会 But those are typical evenings for us.
我们所去的晚宴和派对 一向如此 I mean, we go to dinners and parties like that all the time.
这些晚会真像某种病态的梦 These evenings are really like sort of sickly dreams...
因为人们都在做符号的对白 because people are talking in symbols.
他们就好像 从这片符号和无知之觉 的迷雾中漂过 Everyone is sort of floating through this fog of symbols and unconscious feelings.
没人说真心话 No one says what they're really thinking about.
然后他们开始讲些笑话 和某种秘密代码似的 Then people will start making these jokes that are really some sort of secret code.
没错 在这些晚会里 通常是这样的 Right. Well, what often happens in some of these evenings...
当一些疯狂的小小幻想 开始被把玩 is that these really crazy little fantasies will just start being played with, you know...
人人都立刻聊开了 说一些比如 and everyone will be talking at once and sort of saying...
“嘿 要是法兰克·辛纳屈和尼克松太太如此这般 "Hey, wouldn't it be great if Frank Sinatra and Mrs. Nixon and blah-blah-blah...
在这样的那样的情况下 不是很棒么？” were in such and such a situation?"
总是和名人有关 还总是很离奇 You know, always with famous people, and always sort of grotesque.
或者人们会说一些 可怕的事情 Or people will be talking about some horrible thing...
比如-比如 和泰德·肯尼迪同车那个姑娘的死 like -- like, uh, the death of that girl in the car with Ted Kennedy...
他们就那样爆发出一阵大笑 and they'll just be roaring with laughter.
我是说 这太不可思议了 简直难以置信 I mean, it's really amazing. It's just unbelievable.
任何感情被表达的唯一途径 就是这些愚蠢透顶的笑话 That's the only way anything is expressed, through these completely insane jokes.
我是说 我认为这就是为什么 我从来不理解派对上发生的事情 I mean, I think that's why I never understand what's going on at a party.
我总是感到彻底的困惑 I'm always completely confused.
呃 黛比有一回 在去过了一个这样的纽约晚会后 You know, uh, Debby once said, after one of these New York evenings...
她说她觉得自己 she thought she'd traveled a greater distance...
从芝加哥郊区的老家 just by journeying from her origins in the suburbs of Chicago...
到纽约晚会所跨越的距离 to that New York evening...
比她的祖母当年 than her grandmother had traveled in, uh, making her way...
从俄罗斯草原搬到芝加哥郊区的距离还要长 from the steppes of Russia to the suburbs of Chicago.
- 我完全同意 - [沃利咯咯笑] - I think that's right. - [Wally Chuckles]
也许-也许 沃利 有这样一个原因 You know, it may-- it may be, Wally, that one of the reasons...
让我们看不清事实 that we don't know what's going on...
那就是 当我们在派对中时 都过于忙着表演了 is that when we're there at a party, we're all too busy performing.
嗯哼 Uh-huh.
这也是为什么 葛罗托夫斯基离开剧院的原因 That was one of the reasons that, uh, Grotowski gave up the theater.
他觉得现在的人 在生活中就已经表演的够好了 He just felt that people in their lives now were performing so well...
剧院里的表演成了多余 that performance in the theater was sort of superfluous...
而且 可以说令人厌恶的 and, in a way, obscene.
喝 Huh.
你难道不觉得很神奇么 一个医生总是 Isn't it amazing how often a doctor...
不负众望 而彻底一副医生模样？ will live up to our expectation of how a doctor should look?
你在电视里看到一个恐怖分子 他长的就像个恐怖分子 When you see a terrorist on television, he looks just like a terrorist.
你看 我们活在这样的一个世界 父亲们 I mean, we live in a world in which fathers...
单身汉们 艺术家们 or single people, or artists...
全都尽其所能 去满足他人的某些幻想 are all trying to live up to someone's fantasy...
关于一个父亲 一个单身汉 或者一个艺术家是什么形象 of how a father, or a single person, or an artist should look and behave.
他们似乎都特别清楚 要怎样表演 They all act as if they know exactly how they ought to conduct themselves...
片刻也不松懈 at every single moment...
他们看上去是那么自信 and they all seem totally self-confident.
当然 私底下 人们对于自我也是很混乱的 Of course, privately people are very mixed up about themselves.
没错 Yeah.
他们不知道该怎样看待 自己的生活 They don't know what they should be doing with their lives.
- 他们会看那些《心灵鸡汤》 - 哦 一点不假！ - They're reading all these self-help books. - Oh, God!
你看 那些书真是太打动人了 因为它们显示出 I mean, those books are just so touching, because they show...
我们是多么渴望了解 多么好奇别人 how desperately curious we all are to know how all the others of us...
在生活里到底发生了什么 are really getting on in life...
即便如此 由于总是在扮演 这些角色 even though, by performing these roles all the time...
我们还是把真实的自己 藏了起来 秘不示人 we're just hiding the reality of ourselves from everybody else.
我们就等于活在 对彼此荒谬的无知中 I mean, we live in such ludicrous ignorance of each other.
我们对自己想要了解的 总是如此无知 We usually don't know the things we'd like to know...
即便事关最要好的朋友 也不例外 even about our supposedly closest friends.
我是说-我是说 I mean -- I mean, you know...
假设你的生活 正充满痛苦和不幸 suppose you're going through some kind of hell in your own life.
你会特别想知道 自己的朋友是否经历过类似的事 Well, you would love to know if your friends have experienced similar things.
可我们就是不敢开口问 But we just don't dare to ask each other.
是的 这就好像 让你的朋友脱下伪装 No. It would be like asking your friend to drop his role.
你看 我们就是毫不注重 感知真实 I mean, we just put no value at all on perceiving reality.
相反的 我们全部的重心都在 I mean, on the contrary, this incredible emphasis that we all place now...
我们所谓的事业上 on our so-called careers...
不自觉地 就把感知真实 扔到脑后 automatically makes perceiving reality a very low priority...
因为 如果你的生活全都围绕着 追求事业有成而展开的话 because if your life is organized around trying to be successful in a career...
那么 感知什么 或经历什么 也就无关紧要了 well, it just doesn't matter what you perceive or what you experience.
你真的可以 往后几年都关上你的心灵 就相当于 You can really sort of shut your mind off for years ahead, in a way.
你能打开某种自动导航 You can sort of turn on the automatic pilot.
你瞧 你母亲的那个医生 就打开了他的自动导航 You know, just the way your mother's doctor had on his automatic pilot...
当他走进病房 他看着这条胳膊 when he went in and he looked at the arm...
却完全不能感知任何别的东西 and he totally failed to perceive anything else.
没错 我们-我们的心灵仅仅 聚焦在那些目标啊 计划啊上面 That's right. Our-- Our minds are just focused on these goals and plans...
那些才不是真实 Which in themselves are not reality.
嗯 目标和计划不是- No. Goals and plans are not --
我想说 他们-他们只是幻想和欲望 他们属于幻灭的生活 I mean, they're -- they're fantasy. They're part of a dream life.
你知道这一切总是显得如此荒谬 I mean, you know, it always just does seem so ridiculous, somehow...
不知怎么 每个人活着 都必须得有个小小的追求 that everybody has to have his little -- his little goal in life.
有时候它如此可笑 因为你根本就不介意追求什么 I mean, it's so absurd, in a way, when you consider that it doesn't matter which one it is.
对极了 正因为人们都专心于自己的追求 Right. And because people's concentration is on their goals...
所以在生活中 他们过的每一刻 无不被习惯驱使 in their life they just live each moment by habit.
真的 就像那个挪威人 总是说着老掉牙的故事 一遍又一遍 Really, like the Norwegian telling the same stories over and over again.
- 嗯哼 - 生活成为了定式 - Mm-hmm. - Life becomes habitual.
这就是现状 And it is today.
如今 某些传奇已经实属罕见 比如那个时候 I mean, very few things happen now like that moment...
马龙·白兰度派了一个印第安小姑娘 去领奥斯卡奖 when Marlon Brando sent the Indian woman to accept the Oscar...
然后一切都乱套了 and everything went haywire.
现在 很少有什么事会乱了 Things just very rarely go haywire now.
如果你被习惯所操纵了 And if you're just operating by habit...
那你就不是在真正活着 Then you're not really living.
你知道吗 在梵文里 动词“存在”的词根 I mean, you know, in Sanskrit, the root of the verb "to be"...
和“生长”或“使生长”的一样 is the same as "to grow" or "to make grow."
嗯 Huh.
[女人的笑声] [Woman Laughing]
- 你听说过洛克吗？ - 昂？ - Do you know about Roc? - Hmm?
[咯咯笑] 哦 是这样 [Chuckling] Oh, well.
洛克是个杰出的人 Roc was a wonderful man.
他是芬德霍恩的创立者之一 He was one of the founders of Findhorn...
他还是苏格兰的一位-实际上 他曾是苏格兰最伟大的数学家（疑为杜撰） and he was one of Scotland's --well, he was Scotland's greatest mathematician...
一百年才出一个的大数学家 and he was one of the century's great mathematicians.
他引以为傲的一点是 没有幻想生活 没有白日梦- And he prided himself on the fact that he had no fantasy life, no dream life --
没任何东西挡在- 没有那种想象出的自我- nothing to stand be -- no imaginary life --
没什么能挡在他 和数学的直接观念间 nothing to stand between him and the direct perception of mathematics.
然后有一天 在他五十好几时 当他正漫步在爱丁堡的花园里 And one day when he was in his mid-50s, he was walking in the gardens of Edinburgh...
他看见一只小羊怪（古罗马神话中森林精灵） and he saw a faun.
小羊怪大吃一惊 因为它们 总是能看见人类 The faun was very surprised because fauns have always been able to see people...
但是很少有人能看见它们 but you know, very few people ever see them.
你知道吗 呃 那种小小的幻想生物 You know, uh, those little imaginary creatures.
- 不是鹿 - 喔 - Not a deer. - Oh.
- 人们称之为弗恩 不是吗？ - 我以为弗恩是某种鹿仔 - You call them fauns, don't you? - I thought a fawn was a baby deer.
嗯 是有一种鹿被称作幼鹿（fawn） 但是还有某些小小的想象中的 Yeah, well, there's a deer that's called a fawn, but these are like those little imagi --
- 哦！德彪西的那种-（法国作曲家，曾作《牧神午后序曲》） - 对了 就是它 - Oh! The kind that Debussy-- - Yes. Right.
好 所以他就结识了这只小羊怪 并且还认识了别的羊怪 Well, so he got to know the faun, and he got to know other fauns...
之后就是一系列的对话 and a series of conversations began...
之后越来越多的羊怪 在每天下午来找他 and more and more fauns would come out every afternoon to meet him.
而后他和它们交谈 And he'd have talks with the fauns.
后来有一天 不久后 在它们和他完全混熟了以后 Then one day, after a while, when, you know, they'd really gotten to know him...
它们问他 愿不愿意去见见潘神（古希腊农牧神 森林神） they asked him if he would like to meet Pan...
因为潘神想认识他 because Pan would like to meet him.
当然了 潘神担心这会吓着他 And of course, Pan was afraid of terrifying him...
因为潘清楚 在基督徒的误解中 because he knew of the Christian misconception...
潘神被描绘为邪恶的生灵 虽然他并非这样 which portrayed Pan as an evil creature, which he's not.
但洛克说他非常愿意去 所以他们见面了 But Roc said he would love to meet Pan, and so they met...
并且 潘神非常巧妙地 促使洛克踏上了一段旅程 and Pan indirectly sent him on his way on a journey...
在那儿他得以遇见 一些志同道合的人 才组建了芬德霍恩 in which he met the other people who began Findhorn.
洛克曾实践过 某些训练- But Roc used to practice certain exercises --
比如 呃 比方说 如果他是个惯用右手的人 like, uh, for instance, if he were right-handed...
那么他会试着整天 都只用左手做事 all today he would do everything with his left hand.
一整天-吃饭 写字 所有的事-开门 All day-- eating, writing, everything -- opening doors...
就为了打破生活的定式 in order to break the habits of living.
因为他感到对他而言 最大的危险 Because the great danger, he felt, for him...
就是出于习惯 落入恍惚中 was to fall into a trance, out of habit.
他发明了一整套 非常简便的训练方式 He had a whole series of very simple exercises that he had invented...
就为了让自己保持 观察 感受 记忆的能力 just to keep seeing, feeling, remembering.
因为如今 你真的需要去学习 Because you have to learn now.
在过去这并非必要的 但如今你必须学习一些 It didn't used to be necessary, but today you have to learn something...
比如 呃 你是真的感到饥饿 like, uh, are you really hungry...
还是仅仅在往嘴里塞东西- [笑声] or are you just stuffing your face -- [Laughing]
因为那是某种处于习惯的行为 Because that's what you do, out of habit?
我是说 你能这样做 所以你做了 I mean, you can afford to do it, so you do it...
无论自己是不是真的饿了 whether you're hungry or not.
你知道吗 如果你跑去 佛徒修行中心的话 You know, if you go to the Buddhist Meditation Center...
他们会让你品尝 你吃的每一口食物 they make you taste each bite of your food...
所以要花上两个小时- 那太可怕了-吃一顿午饭 so it takes two hours -- it's horrible -- to eat your lunch.
但是你对自己食物的味道 是有意识的 But you're conscious of the taste of your food.
如果你仅仅出于习惯进食 就根本食不知味 If you're just eating out of habit, then you don't taste the food...
所以你对于什么是真实 对于自己所做的事 毫不自觉 and you're not conscious of the reality of what's happening to you.
你又掉进了白日梦里 You enter the dream world again.
你是否觉得 我们之所以在白日梦里生活 Now, do you think maybe we live in this dream world...
是因为我们每天都做一些 影响我们的小事情 because we do so many things every day that affect us in ways...
这种影响又是潜移默化的？ that somehow we're just not aware of?
我是说 我刚想到 呃 去年圣诞节 I mean, you know, I was thinking, um, last Christmas...
黛比和我收到一份礼物 一条电热毯 Debby and I were given an electric blanket.
我敢说这是一个了不起的进步 I can tell you that it is just such a marvelous advance...
- 对于我们旧的生活方式 它简直棒极了 - [安德烈咯咯笑] - over our old way of life, and it is just great. - [Andre Chuckling]
但是 有了电热毯以后 生活变的不同于以往 But, uh, it is quite different from not having an electric blanket...
所以我有时候会好奇 它给我带来的是什么？ and I sometimes sort of wonder, well, what is it doing to me?
你看 我有种感觉 我睡眠的方式不再相同了 I mean, I sort of feel, uh, I'm not sleeping quite in the same way.
[咯咯笑] 嗯 你当然不会了 [Chuckles] No, you wouldn't be.
而且 我做的梦也不一样了 I mean, uh, and my dreams are sort of different...
早上起床时 我也感到有所变化 and I feel a little bit different when I get up in the morning.
我是无论如何也不会用电热毯的 I wouldn't put an electric blanket on for anything.
首先 我担心触电 是的 我不信任科技 First, I'd be worried I might get electrocuted. No, I don't trust technology.
但是你看 最主要的是 沃利 我认为它给你的那种舒适 But I mean, the main thing, Wally, is that I think that that kind of comfort...
很直接地导致你和现实的割裂 just separates you from reality in a very direct way.
- 你是说- - 我是说 如果你没有电热毯 - You mean -- - I mean, if you don't have that electric blanket...
你的公寓就非常冷 所以不得不盖上另一条毯子 and your apartment is cold and you need to put on another blanket...
或者从衣橱里翻出一堆外套 搭在你的毯子上 or go into the closet and pile up coats on top of the blankets you have...
这样 你就知道天气确实冷 well, then you know it's cold.
于是这导致了一系列的伴随事件 And that sets up a link of things.
你会产生同情- 你身边的那个人冷吗？ You have compassion for the per-- Well, is the person next to you cold?
世界上还有其他人在忍受寒冷吗？ Are there other people in the world who are cold?
多冷的晚上啊！ 我喜欢寒冷 What a cold night! I like the cold.
天啊 我从未意识到 我不需要什么毯子 冷是很有意思的事 My God, I never realized. I don't want a blanket. It's fun being cold.
我会挤过来 和你挨得更近 因为很冷 I can snuggle up against you even more because it's cold.
你会发生各种各样的事 All sorts of things occur to you.
一旦打开那条电热毯 就像吞下了镇静剂 Turn on that electric blanket, and it's like taking a tranquilizer...
或是像看电视看傻了 or it's like being lobotomized by watching television.
我觉得你又掉进了那个幻想世界里 I think you enter the dream world again.
你看 沃利 这意味着什么 我们活在一个 I mean, what does it do to us, Wally, living in an environment...
连宏大如季节 或冬天 或寒冷 where something as massive as the seasons, or winter, or cold...
都影响不到我们的环境中？ don't in any way affect us?
你看 我们毕竟只是动物 I mean, we're animals, after all.
这意味着什么？ I mean, what does that mean?
我想 这意味着我们不再生活于 太阳底下 I think that means that instead of living under the sun...
或是月亮 天空 星辰之下 and the moon and the sky and the stars...
我们生活在一个 由我们一手打造的梦幻世界里 we're living in a fantasy world of our own making.
对 但我要说 安德烈 我绝对不会 扔了我的电热毯的 Yeah, but I mean, I would never give up my electric blanket, Andre.
因为纽约的冬天就是这么冷 I mean, because New York is cold in the winter.
你看 我的公寓很冷 那是个很艰苦的环境 I mean, our apartment is cold. It's a difficult environment.
我们的生活本来就够难的了 I mean, our lives are tough enough as it is.
我绝不会试着去摆脱那些 为数不多能提供宽慰和舒适的东西 I'm not looking for ways to get rid of the few things that provide relief and comfort.
相反的 我一直在寻求更多的舒适 I mean, on the contrary, I'm looking for more comfort...
因为 呃 这个世界是如此粗砺 because, uh, the world is very abrasive.
你看 呃 我在试着保护自己 I mean, uh, I'm trying to protect myself...
因为 说真的 放眼望去 处处可见需要避免的磨难 because, really, there are these abrasive beatings to be avoided everywhere you look.
可是 沃利 难道你-难道你看不出 这种舒适会很危险么？ But, Wally, don't you -- don't you see that comfort can be dangerous?
我是说 你喜欢舒适 我也喜欢舒适 I mean, you like to be comfortable, and I like to be comfortable too...
可是舒适会把你哄骗进 一种危险的麻醉中 but comfort can lull you into a dangerous tranquillity.
我母亲认识这样一位女人 哈特菲尔德女士 I mean, my mother knew a woman, Lady Hatfield...
她曾是世上最富有的女人之一 who was one of the richest women in the world...
可她却死于饥饿 因为她只愿意吃鸡肉 and she died of starvation because all she would eat was chicken.
你看 她只爱吃鸡肉 沃利 所以她也只吃这个 I mean, she just liked chicken, Wally, and that was all she would eat.
而实际上 她的身体已经在饿死了 她却毫不知情 And actually her body was starving, but she didn't know it...
因为她吃鸡肉吃得心满意足 最后她终于死了 'cause she was quite happy eating her chicken, and so she finally died.
看 我真心认为 我们现在都像哈特菲尔德女士 See, I honestly believe that we're all like Lady Hatfield now.
我们享受着美妙舒适的生活 我们有电热毯盖 有鸡肉吃 We're having a lovely, comfortable time with our electric blankets and our chicken...
与此同时我们在饿死 因为我们与真实的联系已是如此割裂 and meanwhile we're starving because we're so cut off from contact with reality...
以至于吃不到任何真正的粮食 因为我们看不见这个世界 that we're not getting any real sustenance, 'cause we don't see the world.
我们看不见自己 We don't see ourselves.
也看不见自己的行为 是如何影响他人的 We don't see how our actions affect other people.
你读过马丁·布伯的书吗（德国宗教哲学家） 《论哈西德主义》? Have you read Martin Buber's book On Hasidism?
- 没有 - 好 有这样一种关于生命的观点 - No. - Well, here's a view of life.
你看 他谈到 在哈西德派犹太人的信仰中 I mean, he talks about the belief of the Hasidic Jews...
万物皆有灵性 that there are spirits chained in everything.
在你体中束缚着灵性 在我体中束缚着灵性 There are spirits chained in you. There are spirits chained in me.
在这张桌子里 也束缚着灵性 Well, there are spirits chained in this table.
有一种谓之祷告的行为 能把这些被束缚的 胚胎式的灵性释放出来 And that prayer is the action of liberating these enchained embryo-like spirits...
我们生命中的每个举动 and that every action of ours in life...
不论是 工作 或做爱 whether it's, uh, doing business, or making love...
或是一起吃晚饭 无论什么- or having dinner together, or whatever--
我们的每个举动 都应该是一次祷告 that every action of ours should be a prayer...
是大千世界中的一次圣礼 a sacrament in the world.
你觉得我们是这样生活的吗？ Now, do you think we're living like that?
为什么你不这样觉得？ Why do you think we're not living like that?
我认为 这是由于 如果我们允许自己 看清我们每天所做之事 I think it's because if we allowed ourselves to see what we do every day...
我们可能会觉得恶心极了 we might just find it too nauseating.
我是说 瞧我们对待他人的方式 I mean, the way we treat other people.
你知道吗 每一天 我都要好几次走进我的公寓大楼 You know, every day, several times a day, I walk into my apartment building.
门卫叫我格里高利先生 我叫他吉米 The doorman calls me Mr. Gregory, and I call him Jimmy.
好嘛 这种称谓方式 Already, what's the difference between that...
和蓄奴的南方种植园主 有什么两样？ and the Southern plantation owner who's got slaves?
你看 我认为在那个时刻 发生了一种谋杀行为 You see, I think that an act of murder is committed in that moment...
就在我走进那栋大楼的时刻 when I walk into that building.
因为这是一个有尊严 有智慧的男人- 一个和我一般年纪的男人- Because here's a dignified, intelligent man -- a man of my own age --
当我叫他吉米时 他就成了个小屁孩 我则是个成人 and when I call him Jimmy, then he becomes a child, and I'm an adult...
仅仅因为我有钱住在这大楼里 because I can buy my way into the building.
对 没错 Right. That's right.
我想说 天啊 当我还是个拉丁文老师时 I mean, my God, when I was a Latin teacher...
我想说 人们对待我- I mean, people used to treat me --
呃 你知道 如果我去参加一个聚会 I mean, uh, you know, if I would go to a party...
邀请的都是专业人士或搞文学的 of professional or literary people...
我是说 我会被当做 呃 选个最好听的说法就是 I mean, I was just treated, uh, in the nicest sense of the word...
像条狗一样 uh, like a dog.
我的意思是 本来没有任何问题 I mean, in other words, there was no question...
我完全能在平等的基础上 和别人交谈 of my being able to participate on an equal basis in a conversation with people.
你看 我会偶尔和人们聊天 I mean, you know, I'd occasionally have conversations with people...
可之后 呃 当他们问起我是做什么的 but then, uh, when they asked what I did...
这一般是在聊了五分钟以后 which would always happen after about five minutes...
你知道么 他们的脸- uh, you know, their faces --
即便他们正和我相谈甚欢 甚至正在跟我调情 不管是怎样- Even if they were enjoying the conversation, or they were flirting with me, or whatever it was --
他们的脸部表情 顿时就像一道吊闸放了下来 their faces would just have that expression just like the portcullis crashing down.
你知道的 就像那些中世纪的大门 他们转身就走 You know, those medieval gates. They would just walk away.
我是说 我真的活得像条狗 I mean, I literally lived like a dog.
还有 呃 当黛比 做秘书那会儿 你知道吗 And I mean, uh, when Debby was working as a secretary, you know...
如果她告诉别人她的工作 他们就直接疯了 if she would tell people what she did, they would just go insane.
那就好像 她说的是 I mean, it would be just as if she'd said, uh...
“哦 我最近一直在服无期徒刑中 因为谋杀儿童” "Oh, well, I've been serving a life sentence recently, uh, for child murdering."
天啊 你知道 当你说到 我们对他人的态度时 I mean, my God, you know, when you talk about our attitudes toward other people...
你看 我觉得我自己 I mean, I think of myself...
是个非常正派的好人 as just a very decent, good person, you know...
因为我觉得自己相当友善地 just because I think I'm reasonably friendly...
对待我每天遇到的大多数人 to most of the people I happen to meet every day.
我是说 我看待自己的态度挺自以为是 I mean, I really think of myself quite smugly.
我觉得自己是个挺不错的好人儿 I just think I'm a perfectly nice guy, uh, you know...
只要我把全部世界想作 so long as I think of the world as consisting of, you know...
只由一小圈朋友组成 just the small circle of the people that I know as friends...
或是由那些涉及 我们小小的爱好的人- or the few people that we know in this little world of our little hobbies --
戏剧啊 或者别的什么 the theater or whatever it is.
我真的对自己颇为满意 我就是这么安身乐命 And I'm really quite self-satisfied. I'm just quite happy with myself.
我对自己没什么可抱怨的 I just have no complaint about myself.
我是说 你不得不承认 I mean, you know, let's face it.
外面还有一个广袤的世界 是我从未想及的 I mean, there's a whole enormous world out there that I just don't ever think about.
在那个世界里该怎样生活 当然就不关我的事了 I certainly don't take responsibility for how I've lived in that world.
我是说 如果我真的去 正视事实 I mean, you know, if I were actually to sort of confront the fact...
我会发现自己正和 that I'm sort of sharing this stage...
和非洲某处某个要饿死的人 共享这个舞台 with-with-with this starving person in Africa somewhere...
那样 我就不能自我感觉良好了 well, I wouldn't feel so great about myself.
所以我很自然就-我就把那些人 都请出脑子 So naturally I just -- I just blot all those people right out of my perception.
所以 当然了- 当然我始终忽略了 So, of course -- of course, I'm ignoring...
一整页真实的世界 a whole section of the real world.
可坦白说 你知道么 But frankly, you know...
当我在写一出戏时 在某种意义上 我认为自己正在尝试的是 when I write a play, in a way, one of the things I guess I think I'm trying to do...
试着去勇敢面对一小块的真实 is I'm trying to bring myself up against some little bits of reality...
而且我试着跟观众分享它 and I'm trying to share that, uh, with an audience.
你看-我是说 当然我们都知道 I mean -- I mean, of course we all know, uh...
戏剧如今的状况很糟 the theater is, uh, in terrible shape today.
我是说-呃 至少几年以前 真正关心戏剧的人 I mean, uh -- I mean, at least a few years ago people who really cared about the theater...
还会说“戏剧死了” used to say, "The theater is dead."
可现在 人人都以一种随意的方式 重新定义了戏剧 And now everybody's redefined the theater in such a trivial way...
我的意思是-天啊 that, I mean -- I mean, God...
我认识一些人 他们曾经了解戏剧 也经常去看戏- I know people who are involved with the theater who go to see things now that --
就在几年前 这些同样的人 I mean, a few years ago these same people...
只要看到某些戏就会尴尬 would have just been embarrassed to have even seen some of these plays.
我是说 他们会畏缩 会害怕 厌恶于 I mean, they would have just shrunk, you know, just in horror...
那些东西的肤浅 at the superficiality of these things.
而如今 他们却说“哦 这还不错嘛” But now they say, "Oh, that was pretty good."
简直让人难以置信 It's just incredible.
我真的对这种态度不堪忍受 And I really just find that attitude unbearable...
因为我真心认为戏剧有非常重要的作用 because I really do think the theater can do something very important.
我真心认为戏剧有助于人们 去接触真实 I mean, I do think the theater can help bring people in contact with reality.
现在 当下 或许你根本就感受不到了 你可能觉得那是完全荒谬的 Now, now, you may not feel that at all. You may just find that totally absurd.
是的 可是沃利 难道你看不见困境何在么？ Yeah, but, Wally, don't you see the dilemma?
你没有把我们生存的时代考虑进去 You're not taking into account the period we're living in.
我是说 这当然是戏剧担负的责任 I mean, of course that's what the theater should do.
我一向是这样认为的 I mean, I've always felt that.
当我还是个青年导演时 我曾在耶鲁执导过《酒神的女祭司》（古希腊悲剧） You know, when I was a young director, and I directed the Bacchae at Yale...
我有这么个主意 当彭透斯 被他的母亲和复仇女神们杀死时 my impulse, when Pentheus has been killed by his mother and the Furies...
她们把树拉倒 她们把他绑到树上 and they pull the tree back, and they tie him to the tree...
把他扔向空中 他掉下来摔死了 and fling him into the air, and he flies through space and he's killed...
她们又把他撕成碎片 而且割下了他的头- and they rip him to shreds and I guess cut off his head --
我忽然有这么个点子 从新港停尸房弄一个头颅 my impulse was that the thing to do was to get a head from the New Haven morgue...
然后让观众传阅 and pass it around the audience.
我当时想让阿高厄（彭透斯之母） 带上一个真的头颅 Now, I wanted Agawe to bring on a real head...
这颗头颅要给观众们传看 and that this head should be passed around the audience...
这样人们迟早就会发现 这玩意儿是真的 明白了吗？ so that somehow people realized that this stuff was real, see?
这是个真家伙 That it was real stuff.
- 不过 扮演阿高厄的女演员 坚决不肯这样做 - [咯咯笑] - Now, the actress playing Agawe absolutely refused to do it. - [Giggling]
戈登·克雷格（英国戏剧家）曾谈到过 You know, Gordon Craig used to talk about...
为什么金银被用在教堂里 或此类的-比如大教堂 why is there gold or silver in the churches or something -- the great cathedrals --
而演员能够穿金戴银？ when actors could be wearing gold and silver?
还有 在艾丽奥诺拉·杜斯（意大利演员）人生的最后几年里 去看她演出的人 沃利- And I mean, people who saw Eleonora Duse in the last couple of years of her life, Wally--
会说仿佛看到舞台上 有光彩 或薄雾 people said that is was like seeing light on stage, or mist...
或是什么东西的精华 or the essence of something.
你再想想贝托尔特·布莱希特（德国戏剧家） I mean, then when you think about Bertolt Brecht --
他开创了一种戏剧 让观众能够观察和批判 He somehow created a theater in which people could observe...
它在具有极大的愉悦性和刺激性的同时 that was vastly entertaining and exciting...
又不让你陷入这种刺激无法自拔 but in which the excitement didn't overwhelm you.
他通过某些方法给予你一种 观者和舞台表演之间的疏离 He somehow allowed you the distance between the play and yourself...
实际上 这也是人类间共存所必须的 that, in fact, two human beings need in order to live together.
问题是 如今的戏剧是否尚能为观众做到 You know, the question is whether the theater now can do for an audience...
布莱希特想做的 或克莱格 或杜斯想做的 what Brecht tried to do or what Craig or Duse tried to do.
它现在还能做到吗？ Can it do it now?
因为我认为 如今的人都如此沉睡 'Cause, you see, I think that people today are so deeply asleep...
除了上演那些肤浅的戏剧 that unless, you know, you're putting on those sort of superficial plays...
帮观众睡的更舒服之外 that just help your audience to sleep more comfortably...
戏剧已经无计可施了 it's very hard to know what to do in the theater.
[人们的谈话声 笑声] [People Chattering, Laughing]
我认为如果你上演严肃的时事戏剧作品 Because, you see, I think that if you put on serious, contemporary plays...
由你自己这样的作者写的 by writers like yourself...
可能仅会加剧观众的麻木 只不过方式不同而已 you may only be helping to deaden the audience in a different way.
此话怎讲？ What do you mean?
是这么回事 沃利 Well, I mean, Wally...
这样的一类戏剧 你怎能指望它打动观众？ how does it affect an audience to put on one of these plays...
剧中你展示了 如今的人们已是彻底孤立了 in which you show that people are totally isolated now...
他们触碰不到彼此 他们的生活是绝望的 and they can't reach each other, and their lives are desperate?
这种戏又怎能打动他们 如果它说的是 我们的世界 Or how does it affect them to see a play that shows that our world...
除了耸人听闻的桃色事件 恐怖 暴力之外 再别无它物？ is full of nothing but shocking sexual events, and terror, and violence?
这有助于唤醒观众吗？ Does that help to wake up a sleeping audience?
我不这么觉得 因为我认为 极有可能 See, I don't think so, 'cause I think it's very likely...
你在那样一出戏中 展示给他们的世界图景 that the picture of the world that you're showing them in a play like that...
正是他们对世界的既成看法 is exactly the picture of the world they have already.
他们清楚自己的生活和人际关系 I mean, you know, they know their own lives and relationships...
是艰难和痛苦的 are difficult and painful.
如果他们看电视里的晚间新闻 And if they watch the evening news on television...
他们会看到一个吓人的 混乱的世界 well, there what they see is a terrifying, chaotic universe...
到处都是强奸和谋杀 手被地铁车厢割掉 full of rapes and murders and hands cut off by subway cars...
儿童把他们的父母推出窗子 and children pushing their parents out of windows.
于是 那部戏只能说明 他们关于世界的印象是正确的 So the play tells them that their impression of the world is correct...
而且绝无出路可言 and that there's absolutely no way out.
他们对此无能为力 There's nothing they can do.
他们到头来感到消极和无助 And they end up feeling passive and impotent.
看看另一些东西 I mean, look-- look, at something like that christening...
比如我的小组在波兰森林 为我安排的洗礼 that my group arranged for me in the forest in Poland.
它就是一个准戏剧的范例 它拥有一切戏剧的元素 Well, there was an example of something that really had all the elements of theater.
安排细致 考虑周全 It was worked on carefully. It was thought about carefully.
它以一种精妙的格调和魔力完成 It was done with exquisite taste and magic.
并且 实际上创造了某些东西 And they, in fact, created something...
就此而言 可以说只为了一个观众- 那就是我 which, in this case, was, in a way, just for an audience of one --just for me.
他们的创造物 包含了仪式 爱 惊喜 But they created something that had ritual, love, surprise...
尾声 开端 起承转合 denouement, beginning, a middle and end...
完全是一出美妙绝伦的戏剧 and was an incredibly beautiful piece of theater.
而且它对它的观众-也就是我 造成的影响 And the impact that it had on its audience -- on me --
完全是积极正面的 was somehow a totally positive one.
它没有让我麻木 它带给我生机 It didn't deaden me. It brought me to life.
好的 你是不是在说 绝无可能- Yeah, but I mean, are you saying that it's impossible --
我是说- 这难道不令人有些心烦吗 I mean, uh -- I mean -- I mean, uh, isn't it a little upsetting...
下结论说 再没别的途径唤醒人们 to come to the conclusion that there's no way to wake people up anymore...
除了让他们参与某种古怪的波兰洗礼 except to involve them in some kind of a strange, uh, christening in Poland...
或是某种珠峰上的奇遇 or some kind of a strange experience on top of Mount Everest?
因为你要明白 糟糕的一点是 I mean, uh, because, uh, you know that the awful thing is...
如果你坚持 if you really say that it's-it's necessary...
把每个人带上珠峰是必要的 to, uh, take everybody to, uh, Everest...
那就非常棘手了 因为不可能每个人都去珠峰 it's really tough, because everybody can't be taken to Everest.
历史上肯定有某些时期 你可以通过不那么极端的手段 I mean, there must have been periods in history when it would have been possible...
去拯救病人 to, uh, save the patient through less drastic measures.
肯定有过某些时期 当你试图给人们传达 I mean, there must have been periods when in order to give people...
一种强烈的或富有意义的感受 a strong or meaningful experience...
你不必当真把他们带去珠峰 you wouldn't actually have to take them to Everest.
可是现在不同了 从某个角度说 你现在必须这样做 But you do now. In some way or other, you do now.
想当初 你只要写出 比如说 You know, there was a time when you could have just, for instance, written...
随便说说 比如简·奥斯丁的《理智与情感》 I don't know, uh, Sense and Sensibility by Jane Austen.
我敢肯定读它的人也有过很强烈的感受 我确定他们有过 And I'm sure the people who read it had a pretty strong experience. I'm sure they did.
好了 现在你说今天的人就是感受不到 I mean, all right, now you're saying that people today wouldn't get it.
或许那是事实 可难道就没有任何作品或任何戏剧- Maybe that's true. But I mean, isn't there any kind of writing or any kind of a play--
当作家试图描绘现实 I mean, isn't it still legitimate for writers...
好让人们领悟 这还是正当合理的吗？ to try to portray reality so that people can see it?
说真的 你说为什么我们非得去趟珠峰 I mean, really, tell me, why do we require a trip to Mount Everest...
才能够理解片刻的现实？ in order to be able to perceive one moment of reality?
难道珠峰比纽约要更真实？ I mean -- I mean, is Mount Everest more real than New York?
难道纽约不真实？ I mean, isn't New York real?
我认为如果你能充分意识到 I mean, you see, I think if you could become fully aware...
这家餐厅隔壁的雪茄店里有什么 of what existed in the cigar store next door to this restaurant...
就足以让你眼珠子掉出来 I think it would just blow your brains out.
雪茄店里能被感知的真实 I mean -- I mean, isn't there just as much reality to be perceived...
难道没有珠峰上的多？ in a cigar store as there is on Mount Everest?
你觉得呢？ I mean, what do you think?
我认为珠峰不仅不会更真实 I think that not only is there nothing more real about Mount Everest...
甚至可以说它没什么特别 I think there's nothing that different, in a certain way.
因为真实在某种意义上 都是相同的 I mean, because reality is uniform, in a way...
所以如果你的感知力- so that if your-- if your perceptions are --
如果你自己的机制运作正常的话 I mean, if your own mechanism is operating correctly...
去珠峰也就毫不相干了 而且有点荒唐 it would become irrelevant to go to Mount Everest, and sort of absurd...
因为-当然在某些方面 because, I mean -- it just -- I mean, of course, on some level, I mean...
它显然和第七大道上的雪茄店很不同 obviously it's very different from a cigar store on 7 th Avenue.
- 可是- - 是的 沃利 我同意你说的 - But I mean -- - Well, I agree with you, Wally.
但问题是人们就是看不见雪茄店 But the problem is that people can't see the cigar store now.
事物不能再像过去那样影响他们了 I mean, things don't affect people the way they used to.
很有可能十年以后 I mean, it may very well be that 10 years from now...
有人会花一万美元现金去势 people will pay $10,000 in cash to be castrated...
就为了感受点儿什么 just in order to be affected by something.
为什么-你说为什么会这样？这是为什么？ Well, why--why do you think that is? I mean, why is that?
是因为人们如今懒吗 还是因为他们无聊？ I mean, is it just because people are lazy today, or they're bored?
我们是否就像无聊的 被惯坏的小孩 I mean, are we just like bored, spoiled children...
整天就躺在浴缸里 who've just been lying in the bathtub all day...
玩他们的塑料鸭子？ just playing with their plastic duck...
现在他们又想“我干点什么好？” and now they're just thinking, "Well, what can I do?"
没错 好的 我们就是无聊 Okay. Yes. We're bored.
我们如今全都很无聊 We're all bored now.
可你是否想过 沃利 是什么样的进程 But has it every occurred to you, Wally, that the process...
制造了当下这种举世可见的无聊 that creates this boredom that we see in the world now...
它极有可能因为于一种自我延续的 不知不觉的洗脑 may very well be a self-perpetuating, unconscious form of brainwashing...
而这又出自 以金钱为基础的世界集权政府 created by a world totalitarian government based on money...
所有这些要比人们想象的危险的多 and that all of this is much more dangerous than one thinks...
它不仅仅是个人生存的问题 沃利 and it's not just a question of individual survival, Wally...
更严重的是 无聊的人是麻木的 but that somebody who's bored is asleep...
而麻木的人不会说不 and somebody who's asleep will not say no?
我总是遇到这些人- 就在几天前 See, I keep meeting these people -- I mean, uh, just a few days ago...
我遇见一位我很敬慕的人 I met this man whom I greatly admire.
他是个瑞典物理学家 古斯塔夫·布耶恩施特兰德 （疑取自演员甘纳尔） He's a Swedish physicist. Gustav Bjornstrand.
他告诉我他不会再看电视 And he told me that he no longer watches television...
也不读报纸不看杂志 he doesn't read newspapers, and he doesn't read magazines.
他的生活彻底戒掉了这些东西 He's completely cut them out of his life...
因为他的的确确感到 我们如今活在某种奥威尔式的噩梦里 because he really does feel that we're living in some kind of Orwellian nightmare now...
也就是说 你所听见的一切 都在将你变成一个机器人 and that everything that you hear now contributes to turning you into a robot.
我还在芬德霍恩那会儿 曾遇到 一位非凡的英国植物学家 And when I was at Findhorn, I met this extraordinary English tree expert...
他一辈子都致力于保护树木 Who had devoted his life to saving trees.
当时他刚从华盛顿回来 是去游说保护美洲红杉的 Just got back from Washington, lobbying to save the redwoods.
他已经84岁了 总是带着一个背包旅行 He's 84 years old, and he always travels with a backpack...
因为他从不知道明天身处何方 'cause he never knows where he's gonna be tomorrow.
我在芬德霍恩看到他时 他问我“你是哪里人” And when I met him at Findhorn, he said to me, "Where are you from?"
我说“纽约” 他说“啊 纽约 那是个非常有意思的地方” I said, "New York." He said, "Ah, New York. Yes, that's a very interesting place.
你是否知道 很多纽约人一直说着想离开 却从没行动？” Do you know a lot of New Yorkers who keep talking about the fact that they want to leave, but never do?"
我说“没错” 他又问“你说他们为什么不走呢” And I said, "Oh, yes." And he said, "Why do you think they don't leave?"
我发表了一番老生常谈 他说“喔 我认为完全不是那么回事” I gave him different banal theories. He said, "Oh, I don't think it's that way at all."
他说“我认为纽约是新式集中营的新典范 He said, "I think that New York is the new model for the new concentration camp...
囚犯们亲手筑造了这个集中营 "where the camp has been built by the inmates themselves...
而囚犯自己同时也是看守 他们为自己所建之物感到骄傲 "and the inmates are the guards, and they have this pride in this thing they've built.
正因为他们建造了自己的监狱 "They've built their own prison.
所以他们活在一种精神分裂中 "And so they exist in a state of schizophrenia...
既是警卫又是犯人 "where they are both guards and prisoners.
结果就是 他们不再- 变得麻木和迟钝以后- "And as a result, they no longer have -- having been lobotomized --
不再有能力离开自己造的监狱 "the capacity to leave the prison they've made...
甚至不再能看清这是所监狱” or to even see it as a prison."
然后他伸进口袋 掏出一颗树种 And then he went into his pocket, and he took out a seed for a tree...
说道“这是一颗松树” and he said, "This is a pine tree."
他把种子放进我手心 然后说 “逃走吧 趁着为时不晚” He put it in my hand and he said, "Escape before it's too late."
说实话 这两三年来 See, actually, for two or three years now...
我和乔姬塔一直有种不舒服的感觉 就是我们真的该离开这地方了 Chiquita and I have had this very unpleasant feeling that we really should get out.
我们颇有30年代末德国犹太人的感受 We really feel like Jews in Germany in the late '30s.
此地不宜久留 Get out of here.
当然 问题是去哪里 Of course, the problem is where to go.
因为 很明显整个世界都在殊途同归 'Cause it seems quite obvious that the whole world is going in the same direction.
我觉得极有可能20世纪60年代 See, I think it's quite possible that the 1960s...
代表了人类灭绝前的最终呐喊 represented the last burst of the human being before he was extinguished...
而它开启的是余下的岁月 现在 从今往后 and that this is the beginning of the rest of the future, now...
只会有一些机器人四下行走 and that from now on there'll simply be all these robots walking around...
没有感情 没有思维 feeling nothing, thinking nothing.
又能剩下谁 去提醒他们 And there'll be nobody left almost to remind them...
曾经有一个物种叫做人类 that there once was a species called a human being...
有着灵魂和思想 with feelings and thoughts...
就在此时此刻 历史和记忆正在被抹去 and that history and memory are right now being erased...
不久就没人能真正记得 and soon nobody will really remember...
这个星球上还存在过生命 that life existed on the planet.
当然 布耶恩施特兰德感到 这一切是无可救药的 Now, of course, Bjornstrand feels that there's really almost no hope...
我们可能会倒退至一种非常野蛮 and that we're probably going back to a very savage...
无法无天 恐怖的时代 lawless, terrifying period.
在芬德霍恩 人们的看法却稍有不同 Findhorn people see it a little differently.
他们认为到时会有一些星星之火 They're feeling that there'll be these pockets of light...
从世界的各个角落纷涌而出 springing up in different parts of the world...
而这些将会成为 某种意义上的世外桃源 and that these will be, in a way, invisible planets on this planet...
当我们和世界变得越来越冷 and that as we, or the world, grow colder...
我们能够拜访这些世外桃源 we can take invisible space journeys to these different planets...
补给一番 各取所需 refuel for what it is we need to do on the planet itself...
然后回到外面的世界 and come back.
他们感到是该有一些基地了 And it's their feeling that there have to be centers now...
好让人们过来 为世界重建新未来 where people can come and reconstruct a new future for the world.
当我和古斯塔夫聊的时候 And when I was talking to, uh, Gustav Bjornstrand...
他说实际上 到处都有基地在形成了 he was saying that actually these centers are growing up everywhere now...
它们想做的 也就是芬德霍恩想做的 and that what they're trying to do, which is what Findhorn was trying to do...
而且 可以说是我想做的- and, in a way, what I was trying to do --
这些东西无法言说 I mean, these things can't be given names...
但某种意义上 都是试图创立一种新式学校 but in a way, these are all attempts at creating a new kind of school...
或新式修道院 or a new kind of monastery.
古斯塔夫提到了“保护区”的概念 And Bjornstrand talks about the concept of"reserves" --
它是一种安全岛 在这里 历史得以被铭记 islands of safety where history can be remembered...
人类种群得以继续繁衍生息 and the human being can continue to function...
这样在黑暗的时代里 人类火种不灭 in order to maintain the species through a dark age.
换句话说 我们谈的是一种地下组织 In other words, we're talking about an underground...
它在中世纪欧洲曾以不同面貌出现过 which did exist in a different way during the Dark Ages...
在那些教会的秘密团体中 among the mystical orders of the church.
我们说的地下组织 And the purpose of this underground...
意在想方设法去保存 光明 生命 文化 is to find out how to preserve the light, life, the culture...
如何使一切保持活力 how to keep things living.
我老觉得我们需要的是 You see, I keep thinking that what we need...
一种全新的语言- is a new language --
一种心灵语言 a language of the heart...
像是在波兰的森林里 一种无需语言处的语言 a language, as in the Polish forest, where language wasn't needed.
它是人和人之间 某种全新的诗 Some kind of language between people that is a new kind of poetry...
它是翩翩起舞的蜜蜂之歌 向我们诉说蜂蜜在哪里 that's the poetry of the dancing bee that tells us where the honey is.
而我认为要创造这种语言 And I think that in order to create that language...
你必须学会颠覆日常规则 you're going to have to learn how you can go through a looking glass...
进入另一类知觉中 into another kind of perception...
你将感受到万物与我为一 where you have that sense of being united to all things...
然后你将豁然开朗 and suddenly you understand everything.
[远处警笛尖鸣声] [Siren Wailing In Distance]
二位需要上甜点吗？ Are you ready for some dessert?
我要一杯浓缩咖啡 谢谢 Uh, I think I'll just have an espresso. Thank you.
- 好的 - 我也要一杯 谢谢 - Very good. - I'll -- I'll also have one. Thank you.
对了 我可以再来一份意式苦杏酒吗？ And --And, uh, could I also have, uh, an amaretto?
当然可以 先生 Certainly, sir.
谢谢 Thank you.
你看 沃利 在芬德霍恩有一座神奇的建筑 You see, Wally, there's this incredible building that they built at Findhorn.
设计它的人一辈子从未设计过任何东西 And the man who designed it had never designed anything in his life.
他是个儿童读物作者 He wrote children's books.
有些人想用它做某种冥想礼堂 And some people wanted it to be a sort of hall of meditation...
其他人想把它作为讲堂 and others wanted it to be a kind of lecture hall.
可是社区里比较神的那些人 想赋予它另一种功能 But the psychic part of the community wanted it to serve another function as well...
因为他们希望它有点像飞船 到了夜里能升起来 because they wanted it to be a kind of spaceship which at night could rise up...
这样UFO就知道这是一个安全的降落点 and let the U.F.O.'s know that this was a safe place to land...
而且在那能发现智慧生命 and that they would find friends there.
所以 问题是- 由于这房子需要一个巨大的屋顶 So, the problem was -- 'cause it needed a massive kind of roof--
问题是 怎么造一个既能留在建筑上的屋顶 was how to have a roof that would stay on the building...
同时又能在晚上飞起来 去见那些飞碟 but at the same time be able to fly up at night and meet the flying saucers.
建筑师绞尽脑汁 冥思苦想 So, the architect meditated and meditated...
最后想出一个非常简单的方案 and he finally came up with the very simple solution...
就是屋顶和建筑实际上并不结合 of not actually joining the roof to the building...
也就是说它有可能倒塌 which means that it should fall off...
因为苏格兰北方的风很大 because they have great gales up in northern Scotland.
为了防止它倒塌 他从海边运来海滩岩- So, to keep it from falling off, he got beach stones from the beach --
或者说是我们干的 因为我-我也为这建筑出了力气 or we did, 'cause l-I worked on this building --
爬上爬下那个屋顶 就这一类的吧 all up and down the roof, just like that.
他的想法是 将在石头间流动的能量 And the idea was that the energy that would flow from stone to stone...
是如此强劲 would be so strong, you see...
以至于它会保证房顶在任何状况下 都不会被吹跑 that it would keep the roof down under any conditions...
而同时 如果需要升起来 它也不会太重 but at the same time, if the roof needed to go up, it would be light enough to go up.
实际上-[咯咯笑] 它成功了 Well -- [Chuckling] It works, you see.
你看 建筑师们不知道为什么它会行的通 Now, architects don't know why it works...
本不该如此 因为它应该散架 and it shouldn't work, 'cause it should fall off.
可它就是有效 它的的确确行的通 But it works. It does work.
狂风吹来 屋顶应该摔落 可它就是没有 The gales blow, and the roof should fall off, but it doesn't fall off.
[男人咳嗽声] [Man Coughing]
是啊 Yep.
呃 Well, uh...
你想听听我对这一切的真实想法吗？ do you want to know my actual response to all this?
- 你是否想知道我的真实看法？ - 当然了！ - Do you want to hear my actual response? - Yes!
看 我的真实想法- 我是说- See, my actual response -- I mean --
[笑声] 我是说- 我只不过尽力去-去活着 你明白么？ [Laughing] I mean -- I mean, I'm just trying to -- to survive, you know?
我是说 我只不过尽力去谋生 I mean, I'm just trying to earn a living...
尽力去付清房租和账单 just trying to pay my rent and my bills.
我是说- I mean, uh --
我过着我的生活 Ah, I live my life.
我喜欢和黛比宅在家里 I enjoy staying home with Debby.
我最近在读查尔顿·赫斯顿的自传（美国演员） I'm reading Charlton Heston's autobiography.
就是这样 And that's that.
我是说 你看-或许偶尔 I mean, you know -- I mean, occasionally, maybe...
我和黛比会出门 我们会去参加个派对之类的 Debby and I will step outside, we'll go to a party or something.
如果我偶尔能调动我小小的才华 写出一部小小的戏本 And if I can occasionally get my little talent together and write a little play...
那简直就- 那就谢天谢地了 well, then that's just -- that's just wonderful.
而且 我喜欢读别人写的小小的戏本 And I mean, I enjoy reading about other little plays people have written...
也喜欢读它们的剧评 人们又是怎么说它们的 and reading the reviews of those plays and what people said about them...
还有人们对人们说的又说了什么 and what people said about what people said.
我的笔记本里有这么一个清单 记着待办事项啊 职责啊这些 And I mean, I have -- I have a list of errands and responsibilities that I keep in a notebook.
我很喜欢核对我的笔记本 I enjoy going through the notebook...
履行我的职责 干完要干的活儿 carrying out the responsibilities, doing the errands...
再把它们一一从清单上划掉 and crossing them off the list.
我就是-我就是不明白还有谁 能体会到更多乐趣 And, I mean, I just -- I just don't know how anybody could enjoy anything more...
甚于我读查尔顿·赫斯顿的自传 than I enjoy, uh, reading Charlton Heston's autobiography...
或是 呃 甚于早上起床 or, uh, you know, uh, getting up in the morning...
喝一杯放了一夜的凉咖啡 and having the cup of cold coffee that's been waiting for me all night...
它好端端的在那 等着我去喝 still there for me to drink in the morning...
夜里也没有蟑螂或苍蝇死在里面 and no cockroach or fly has-has died in it overnight.
当我起床时 如果看见咖啡在那儿 I mean, I'm just so thrilled when I get up...
完全是我希望的样子 我就会感到一阵喜悦 and I see that coffee there, just the way I wanted it.
我根本想象不出 I mean, I just can't imagine...
谁能拥有比这更快乐的事 how anybody could enjoy something else any more than that.
你看-很显然 如果蟑螂- 如果它里面确实有只死蟑螂 I mean -- I mean, obviously, if the cockroach -- if there is a dead cockroach in it...
那我就会感到失望 我会难过 well, then I just have a feeling of disappointment, and I'm sad.
可是我是说 我就是- 就是不觉得 But I mean, I -- I just -- I just don't think...
自己还需要别的什么了 I feel the need for anything more than all this.
然而 你似乎在表达的是 Whereas, you know, you seem to be saying...
呃 that, uh...
现如今的任何人 要过上有意义的生活都是异想天开 it's inconceivable that anybody could be having a meaningful life today...
而且每个人都彻底没救了 and, you know, everyone is totally destroyed...
而且我们全都该住进那些偏僻的村落 and we all need to live in these outposts.
可是 我简直不敢相信-即使是你- But I mean, you know, I just can't believe -- even for you --
你难道不觉得-不会觉得很愉快吗？ 早上起床 I mean, don't you find -- Isn't it pleasant just to get up in the morning...
乔姬塔也在 孩子们也在 and there's Chiquita, there are the children...
然后《纽约时报》送来了 你可以读它 And The Times is delivered, you can read it.
可能你会指导一部戏 可能你不会指导一部戏 I mean, maybe you'll direct a play, maybe you won't direct a play.
指导也好不指导也好 管它呢 But forget about the play that you may or may not direct.
为什么非得-为什么不放轻松 去享受这些小事？ Why is it necessary to --Why not lean back and just enjoy these details?
你看 你还有一本香气四溢的咖啡 和一块佐咖啡的蛋糕 I mean, and there'd be a delicious cup of coffee and a piece of coffeecake.
为什么非得要求更多 I mean, why is it necessary to have more than this...
或者仅仅是有这个念头呢？ or to even think about having more than this?
你看 我不是非常明白你说的这些 I mean, I don't really know what you're talking about.
我的意思是- 我能听懂你在说什么 I mean -- I mean, I know what you're talking about...
但是我并非真的 懂它 but I don't really know what you're talking about.
你知道么 即便我完全赞成你的见解 And I mean, you know, even if I were to totally agree with you, you know...
即便我接受了这样一个观点 那就是所有人都绝无可能 and even if I were to accept the idea that there's just no way for anybody...
找到他们的个人幸福 to have personal happiness now...
我也还是不能认可 well, you know, I still couldn't accept the idea...
让生命精彩的方式 就是彻底地 that the way to make life wonderful would be to just totally...
拒斥西方文明 you know, reject Western civilization...
然后重归某种信仰 信仰什么牛鬼蛇神- and fall back into some kind of belief in some kind of weird something --
你看 我都不知道该从何说起 I mean, I don't even know how to begin talking about this...
你知道在中世纪 but you know, in the Middle Ages...
在我们如今所知的科学思想产生前 before the arrival of scientific thinking as we know it today...
人们愿意相信任何东西 well, people could believe anything.
任何事都可能是真的- 圣母玛利亚的雕像- Anything could be true -- the statue of the Virgin Mary...
可以说话或是流血 什么都可以 could speak or bleed or whatever it was.
可后来一件了不起的事发生了 But the wonderful thing that happened...
随着西方世界科学的发展 was that then in the development of science in the Western world...
有些东西渐渐去魅 可以被理解了 certain things did come slowly to be known and understood.
我是说 I mean, you know...
显然 科学中的所有理念 一直在被改写 obviously, all ideas in science are constantly being revised.
这也是最关键的 I mean, that's the whole point.
我们至少知道宇宙是有一定形式和秩序的 But we do at least know that the universe has some shape and order...
树是不会突然变成人或女神的 and that, uh, you know, trees do not turn into people or goddesses...
而且有很多确凿的理由证实了它 and there are very good reasons why they don't...
所以你不能简单地相信一切了 and you can't just believe absolutely anything.
然而你所说的那些- Whereas, the things that you're talking about --
比如你发现了书里的掌印 I mean -- I mean, you found the handprint in the book...
有三个安德烈和一个圣埃克苏佩里的 and there were -- there were three Andres and one Antoine de Saint-Exupery.
在我看来这纯属巧合 And to me that is a coincidence.
而且 编书的那个人 But --And-And then, you know, the people who put that book together...
有他自己的理由这么做 well, they had their own reasons for putting it together.
可在你看来这是别有意义的 就好像这书40年前被写出来 But to you it was significant, as if that book had been written 40 years ago...
就是为了能让你看见 就好像它是以某种方式 为你安排的 so that you would see it, as if it was planned for you, in a way.
说真的 I mean, really-- I mean --
你看 比如说 我在一家中餐店里吃了个幸运签饼 I mean, all right, let's say, if I get a fortune cookie in a Chinese restaurant...
当然 即使是我 也倾向于- I mean, of course, even I have a tendency--
你懂的 毫无疑问 我不会把幸运签扔了 I mean, you know -- I mean, of course, I would hardly throw it out.
你看 我会读它 我看看写了什么-然后 I mean, I read it. I read it, and -- and, uh --
我会下意识地- 比如它说 I just instinctively sort of-- You know, if it says something like, uh...
“和黑发男子的谈话对你十分重要” "A conversation with a dark-haired man will be very important for you"...
好 我会下意识地想 “我认识的人里谁是黑发的？ well, I just instinctively think, you know, "Who do I know who has dark hair?
我们有过谈话吗？ 我们说了些什么？” Did we have a conversation? What did we talk about?"
也就是说 我心里有一些东西催使我去读它 In other words, uh, there's something in me that makes me read it...
我本能地要解释它 就好像它真是个未来的预兆 and I instinctively interpret it as if it were an omen of the future.
而在我的理智看来- 它恰好也是我整个人生观的基础 But in my conscious opinion, which is so fundamental to my whole view of life --
一旦放弃它 我也就不是自己了 I mean, I would just have to change totally to not have this opinion.
在我的理智看来 这只不过是 In my conscious opinion, this is simply something...
饼干厂在几年前写的玩意 它不可能就是针对我的 that was written in the cookie factory several years ago and in no way refers to me.
我拿到这张幸运签- I mean, you know, the -- the fact that I got it --
写它的人对我一无所知 I mean, the man who wrote it did not know anything about me.
他就不可能知道 任何有关我的事 I mean, he could not have known anything about me.
绝无可能这饼干就非得找上我 There's no way that this cookie could actually have to do with me.
我拿到这张幸运签 基本只是个玩笑 And the fact that I've gotten it is just basically a joke.
再比如 如果我打算坐飞机出行 And I mean, if I were gonna go on a trip on an airplane...
我拿到一个幸运签说“别去” and I got a fortune cookie that said "Don't go"...
当然了 我承认可能会有点紧张 大概1秒钟 I mean, of course, I admit I might feel a bit nervous for about one second.
可实际上 我还是会去 因为 But in fact, I would go because, I mean...
那趟飞行可能顺利或不顺利 that trip is gonna be successful or unsuccessful...
根据的是 飞机的状况和驾驶员的状态 based on the state of the airplane and the state of the pilot.
而幸运签在这方面是没有发言权的 And the cookie is in no position to know about that.
任何一种 And I mean, you know, it's the same...
预言 征兆或预兆都是如此 with any kind of, uh, prophecy, or a sign, or an omen.
因为一旦你相信预兆 也就意味着宇宙- Because if you believe in omens, then that means that the universe --
我都不知道该怎么形容了 I mean, I don't even know how to begin to describe this.
意味着未来正在向现在 That means that the future is somehow sending messages...
送回信息 backwards to the present.
也就是说未来 在某种意义上必然已经存在了 Which-Which means that the future must exist in some sense already...
就为了传递这些信息 in order to be able to send these messages.
这也就意味着宇宙中的事物 存在皆有目的-给我们启示 And it also means that things in the universe are there for a purpose -- to give us messages.
可我认为 宇宙中的事物仅仅是存在而已 Whereas I think that things in the universe are just there.
它们不意味任何东西 I mean, they don't mean anything.
如果海龟蛋从树上掉下来 在铺路石上摔开花 I mean, you know, if the turtle's egg falls out of the tree and splashes on the paving stones...
那只是因为那只海龟笨手笨脚- 是个意外 it's just because that turtle was clumsy-- by accident.
靠这个来决定是否派出我的舰队作战 And-And to decide whether to send my ships off to war on the basis of that...
在我看来是个很大的错误 seems a big mistake to me.
好 那你根据什么派出你的舰队呢？ Well, what information would you send your ships to war on?
因为如果一切都无所指涉 Because if it's all meaningless...
那么相信幸运签 what's the difference whether you accept the fortune cookie...
还是相信福特基金会的统计数字 又有什么区别呢？ or the statistics of the Ford Foundation?
它似乎压根不重要 It doesn't seem to matter.
听我说 有些无意义的事实 比如幸运签或者海龟蛋 Well, the meaningless fact of the fortune cookie or the turtle's egg...
不可能和你分析的对象有任何关联 can't possibly have any relevance to the subject you're analyzing.
可是当一组无意义的事实 以一种科学的方式 被收集和解释 Whereas a group of meaningless facts that are collected and interpreted...
就很有可能有关联了 in a scientific way may quite possibly be relevant.
因为科学及物论最美妙的一点 Because the wonderful thing about scientific theories about things...
就是它们基于可重复实验 is that they're based on experiments that can be repeated.
嗯 Hmm.
此话不假 沃利 Well, it's true, Wally.
听随预兆之类的 I mean, you know, following omens and so on...
可能只是一种让我们解脱的方式 is probably just a way of letting ourselves off the hook...
这样我们就不用为自己的行为 承担个人责任 so that we don't have to take individual responsibility for our own actions.
可是我想说 把自己交给无意识 But I mean, giving yourself over to the unconscious...
也导致你在种种可怕的操控面前十分脆弱 can leave you vulnerable to all sorts of very frightening manipulation.
在所有我参与的工作中 总是有这种危险存在 And in all the work that I was involved in, there was always that danger.
总是有干涉别人生活的疑虑 And there was always that question of tampering with people's lives...
因为如果让我来领导某个工作坊 那我就部分成了个医生 because if I lead one of these workshops, then I do become partly a doctor...
部分是个理疗师 部分是个神父 and partly a therapist, and partly a priest.
而我不是医生 也不是理疗师或神父 And I'm not a doctor, or a therapist, or a priest.
我们之前说过的这些 And already some of these new monasteries...
新式修道院或者社区什么的 or communities or whatever we've been talking about...
已经开始变得制度化 are becoming institutionalized...
恐怕在某些时候 可以说有点法西斯主义 and I guess even in a way, at times, sort of fascistic.
你知道 有种自满的精英偏执在抬头 You know, there's a sort of self-satisfied elitist paranoia that grows up --
一种“他们”和“我们”的论调- 让人非常不安 a feeling of"them" and "us" -- that is very unsettling.
但是 问题是这样的 沃利 正是对科学的过度崇拜 But I mean, uh, the thing is, Wally, I think it's the exaggerated worship of science...
导致我们走到这一步 that has led us into this situation.
科学被我们看做一种魔法 I mean, science has been held up to us as a magical force...
它会解答一切 that would somehow solve everything.
实际上 恰恰相反 它做的恰恰相反 Well, quite the contrary. It's done quite the contrary.
它摧毁了一切 It's destroyed everything.
所以我认为这才是真正的元凶 So that is what has really led, I think...
它导致了眼下这种对科学强烈深切的反动 to this very strong, deep reaction against science that we're seeing now...
比如30年代德国放出的纳粹恶魔 just as the Nazi demons that were released in the '30s in Germany...
很可能就是对某种压抑人的知识 were probably a reaction against a certain oppressive kind of knowledge...
或文化或理性思考的反动 and culture and rational thinking.
所以我承认我们在谈某种 潜在巨大危险的东西 So I agree that we're talking about something potentially very dangerous.
可现代科学的危险也并不少 But modern science has not been particularly less dangerous.
是的 我同意 Right. Well, I agree with you.
完全同意 I completely agree.
事实是 No, you know, the truth is...
我知道你所形容的工作 到底哪里困扰我了 I think I do know what really disturbs me about the work you've described...
我未必能表达清楚 and I don't even know if I can express it.
你在工作坊所做的事情 似乎全部重点在于 But somehow it seems that the whole point of the work that you did in those workshops...
如果你追根究底 你探寻它的本质- when you get right down to it and you ask what was it really about --
我认为它整个意义就在于 The whole point, really, I think...
让你和工作坊里的人 was to enable the people in the workshops, including yourself...
从某些特别的时刻 to somehow sort of strip away every scrap of purposefulness...
抽除了每一丝目的性 from certain selected moments.
这样一来 你们就都能体验 And the point of it was so that you would then all be able to experience...
纯粹的存在 somehow just pure being.
也就是说 你们尝试去探索这样一种处境 In other words, you were trying to discover what it would be like to live for certain moments...
活在某些无为的 脱离目的性的时刻 without having any particular thing that you were supposed to be doing.
而我认为自己单纯的排斥它 And I think I just simply object to that.
我就是不能认同有哪些时刻 I mean, I just don't think I accept the idea that there should be moments...
是你什么也不会去做的 in which you're not trying to do anything.
[咯咯笑] 我觉得 行动是我们的天性 [Chuckling] I think, uh, it's our nature, uh, to do things.
我们就应该有所为 I think we should do things.
我觉得目的性 I think that, uh, purposefulness...
存在于我们根深蒂固的人类基本构造中 is part of our ineradicable basic human structure.
而说我们应该抛开它生活 And to say that we ought to be able to live without it...
就像在说 一棵树要抛去根茎枝蔓一样 is like saying that, uh, a tree ought to be able to live without branches or roots.
可是 如果没有了树枝或树根 它就不会是树了 But -- But actually, without branches or roots, it wouldn't be a tree.
它只能是根木头 你明白我的意思吧？ I mean, it would just be a log. Do you see what I'm saying?
嗯哼 Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
换句话说 如果我坐在家里 又没什么事要做 I mean, in other words, if I'm sitting at home and I have nothing to do...
那我很自然的就会找本书来看 well, I naturally reach for a book.
只坐在那儿有什么好的 无所事事？ I mean, what would be so great about just sitting there and, uh, doing nothing?
它显得很荒唐 It just seems absurd.
如果黛比也在呢？ And if Debby is there?
这没任何区别 Well, that's just the same thing.
我的意思是 是否真的存在这么一说 I mean, is there really such a thing as, uh...
两个人纯粹的共处 什么事也不做？ two people doing nothing but just being together?
那样他们就能 I mean, would they simply then...
呃 “相关联”了吗 借一句我们常说的话 be, uh, "relating," to use the word we're always using?
那到底意味着什么？ I mean, what would that mean?
你看 我们要不就会交谈 I mean, either we're gonna have a conversation...
要不就去扔垃圾 or we're going to, uh, carry out the garbage...
要不就做随便什么事 单独地或一起做 or we're going to do something, separately or together.
你能明白我说的吗？ I mean, do you see what I'm saying?
我是说 仅仅是坐在那儿到底有什么意义？ I mean, what does it mean to just, uh, simply, uh, sit there?
它让你不安 That makes you nervous.
是啊 为什么不呢？ 它对我来说就是显得很荒谬 Well, well, why shouldn't it make me nervous? It just seems ridiculous to me.
很有意思 沃利 That's interesting, Wally.
你知道么 当我去西部藏区的拉达克时 在一个农场待过一个月 You know, when I went to Ladakh in western Tibet and stayed on a farm for a month...
那里的人晚上过来喝茶时 没人说一句话 well, there, you know, when people come over in the evening for tea, nobody says anything.
除非有什么要说的 不过几乎从来没有过 Unless there's something to say, but there almost never is.
他们就坐在那儿 喝他们的茶 而这似乎并不让他们心烦 So they just sit there and drink their tea, and it doesn't seem to bother them.
你看 沃利 总是跃跃欲试 总是有事要做的问题在于 I mean, you see, the trouble, Wally, with always being active and doing things...
极有可能在做尽一切的同时 is that I think it's quite possible to do all sorts of things...
内心却已彻底死去 and at the same time be completely dead inside.
你做了所有的一切 可你做它们 I mean, you're doing all these things, but are you doing them...
是因为你真的感到一种迫切的冲动呢 because you really feel an impulse to do them...
还是仅仅因为机械的习惯呢？ 就如我们之前所说的那样 or are you doing them mechanically, as we were saying before?
因为我确实认为 如果你只是机械地活着 Because I really do believe that if you're just living mechanically...
那你必须得改变你的生活了 then you have to change your life.
你看 当你年轻的时候 你总是出去玩 I mean, you know, when you're young, you go out on dates all the time.
去跳舞什么的 你无拘无束 逍遥自在 You go dancing or something. You're floating free.
然后突然有一天 你发现自己恋爱了 And then one day suddenly you find yourself in a relationship...
世界一下就停转了 and suddenly everything freezes.
这对于工作同样适用 And this can be true in your work as well.
当然 如果你真的心中真的有活力 And I mean, of course, if you're really alive inside...
那当然就不成问题 then of course there's no problem.
我是说 如果你和某人住在一间小小的屋子里 I mean, if you're living with somebody in one little room...
生活延续在你和这个人之间 and there's a life going on between you and the person you're living with...
一整段冒险可以就开始在那间屋子里 well, then a whole adventure can be going on right in that room.
可这一切总是有死去的危险 But there's always the danger that things can go dead.
那么我真心认为你该做个 某种流浪者之类的 Then I really do think you have to kind of become a hobo or something, you know...
就像凯鲁亚克（垮掉一代作家） 你应该上路了 like Kerouac, and go out on the road.
我真的这么想 I really believe that.
确实 把生命花在路上没有那么美妙 You know, it's not that wonderful to spend your life on the road.
如果可以 我自己绝对倾向于留在屋子里 My own overwhelming preference is to stay in that room if you can.
可你也知道 如果你和某人共同生活久了 人们会经常说 But you know, if you live with somebody for a long time, people are constantly saying...
“它当然没有过去那么好了，这是自然而然的事 "Well, of course it's not as great as it used to be, but that's only natural.
爱情的初潮过去后 这是条必经之路” The first blush of a romance goes, and that's the way it has to be."
听着 我完全不同意这种说法 Now, I totally disagree with that.
我认为你必须时常扪心自问 But I do think that you have to constantly ask yourself the question, with total frankness:
你的婚姻还是婚姻吗？ Is your marriage still a marriage?
它是否还有神圣的成分呢？ Is the sacramental element there?
同样要问 在你的工作中 是否还有神圣的因素呢 Just as you have to ask about the sacramental element in your work--
它还在吗？ Is it still there?
这是件非常可怕的事 沃利 你突然意识到 I mean, it's a very frightening thing, Wally, to have to suddenly realize...
天啊 我以为自己在生活 可实际上我连人都不曾是 that, my God, I thought I was living my life, but in fact I haven't been a human being.
我一直是个表演者 I've been a performer.
我没有生活过 我一直在表演 我演了一个父亲的角色 I haven't been living. I've been acting. I've -- I've acted the role of the father.
我演了一个丈夫 我演了一个朋友 I've acted the role of the husband. I've acted the role of the friend.
我演了作家 或导演 或任何什么 I've acted the role of the writer, or director, or what have you.
我和这个人住在同一个屋檐下 却从没真正看到他们 I've lived in the same room with this person, but I haven't really seen them.
从没真正听见他们 从没真正和他们在一起 I haven't really heard them. I haven't really been with them.
是啊 我发现有些人 有时候 Yeah, I know some people are just sometimes...
呃 只是肩并肩地共处 uh, existing just side by side.
另一个人的脸 可以突然变成一张狼的脸 I mean, uh, the other person's, uh, face could just turn into a great wolf's face...
都不会被注意到 and, uh, it just wouldn't be noticed.
不会被注意到 是的 没人会发现 And it wouldn't be noticed, no. It wouldn't be noticed.
你看 当我前不久在以色列的时候- I mean, when I was in Israel a little while ago --
我有一张乔姬塔的照片 那是她- I mean, I have this picture of Chiquita that was taken when she --
我总随身带着照片 那是她大概26岁时拍的 I always carry it with me. It was taken when she was about 26 or something.
那是一个夏天 她从一个阳台探出身来 And it's in summer, and she's stretched out on a terrace...
穿着一条复古长裙 是某种套裙 in this sort of old-fashioned long skirt that's kind of pulled up.
她那时苗条且肉感 很美 And she's slim and sensual and beautiful.
我总是看着这幅照片 只想着她看上去多么性感 And I've always looked at that picture and just thought about just how sexy she looks.
而去年在以色列时 我看着这张照片 And then last year in Israel, I looked at the picture...
才发现照片中的脸 是一张世界上最悲伤的脸 and I realized that that face in the picture was the saddest face in the world.
彼时的那个姑娘 是那么迷惘 That girl at that time was just lost...
如此的哀伤和孤独 so sad and so alone.
我一辈子都带着这张照片 却从没真正看懂它 I've been carrying this picture for years and not ever really seeing what it is, you know.
我就是没有真正去去看它 I just never really looked at the picture.
然后 到了某个阶段 我才发现自己 走过了大好的十八年 却没能力感觉 And then, at a certain point , I realized I'd just gone for a good 18 years unable to feel...
除了某些最极端的情况 except in the most extreme situations.
某种程度而言 我仍然有能力活在自己的工作中 I mean, to some extent, I still had the ability to live in my work.
所以我才是那样一个工作狂 That was why I was such a work junkie.
所以我才觉得自己导的每一出戏 都事关我的生死存亡 That was why I felt that every play that I did was a matter of my life or my death.
可在我的真实生活里 我已经死了 But in my real life, I was dead.
我是个机器人 I was a robot.
你看 我甚至不允许自己生气或恼火 I mean, I didn't even allow myself to get angry or annoyed.
如今 乔姬塔 尼古拉斯 玛丽娜- I mean, you know, today Chiquita, Nicolas, Marina --
一整天 就像人们常有的 他们做一些让我恼火的事 说一些让我恼火的话 All day long, as people do, they do things that annoy me and they say things that annoy me.
如今我会发火 他们问“你为什么要生气？” And today I get annoyed. And they say, "Why are you annoyed?"
我就说“因为你们让人恼火” And I say, "Because you're annoying," you know.
当我允许自己考虑 And when I allowed myself to consider the possibility...
不和乔姬塔共度余生的可能时 of not spending the rest of my life with Chiquita...
我发现自己一生所求 就是总与她相随 I realized that what I wanted most in life was to always be with her.
但那时 我还不懂得何谓 让自己对另一个人 But at that time, I hadn't learned what it would be like to let yourself react...
做出反应 to another human being.
而一旦你不能对他人做出反应 And if you can't react to another person...
那就没有任何作用与相互作用的可能了 then there's no possibility of action or interaction.
而如果没有的话 我实在不知道 “爱”这个字意味了什么 And if there isn't, I don't really know what the word "love" means...
除了职责 义务 伤感 担忧 except duty, obligation, sentimentality, fear.
我是说-[咯咯笑] I mean -- [Chuckling]
我不知道你是怎样的 沃利 可我- I don't know about you, Wally, but I --
我得让自己进行某种训练 才能学着做一个人 I just had to put myself into a kind of training program to learn how to be a human being.
我过去是怎么感受一切的？ 我不知道 I mean, how did I feel about anything? I didn't know.
什么样的东西是我喜欢的？ 什么样的人是我真心想交往的？ What kind of things did I like? What kind of people did I really want to be with? You know?
而唯一我能想到的发现途径 And the only way that I could think of to find out...
就是切断所有的噪音 停止所有的表演 was to just cut out all the noise and stop performing all the time...
然后只倾听自己的内心 and just listen to what was inside me.
看 我认为是你该这么做的时候了 See, I think a time comes when you need to do that.
也许为了这样做 你得去趟撒哈拉沙漠 Now, maybe in order to do it, you have to go to the Sahara...
也许在家也可以 and maybe you can do it at home.
但是你必须切断噪音 But you need to cut out the noise.
[街上的汽车喇叭声] [Car Horn Honks On Street]
是的 当然 个人感觉 我就是- Yeah. Of course, personally, l-I just, uh --
我通常不喜欢[咯咯笑]那些安静的时刻 I usually don't, uh -- [Chuckles] Like those quiet moments, you know.
我确实不喜欢 I really don't.
我不知道这有没有什么弗洛伊德式的说法 I mean, uh, I don't know if it's that, uh, Freudian thing or what --
就是那种对无意识冲动的恐惧 But, uh, you know, the fear of unconscious impulses...
或者对我自己的进攻性的恐惧 这之类的 or my own aggression or whatever, but, uh...
如果一切变得太安静 我发现自己只是坐在那儿 if things get too quiet, and I find myself just, uh, sitting there...
就像我们之前说的那样 you know, as we were saying before...
不管是一个人 还是和别人在一起 I mean, whether I'm by myself, or-or I'm-I'm with someone else...
我总是有这样一种感触- I just, uh -- I just have this feeling of...
呃 天啊 我要被识破了 uh, my God, I'm going to be revealed.
也就是说 我能胜任任何一种工作 In other words, I'm adequate to do any sort of a task, um...
可我却不能胜任 仅仅去-做一个人 but I'm not adequate, uh, just to -- to be a human being.
我是说 我不能- I mean, in other words, I'm not, uh --
如果我只是被困在那儿 而且我不能做什么事的话 If I'm just, uh, trapped there and I'm not allowed to do things...
所以我可以做的就只是 呃 存在 but all I can do is just, um, be there...
那我就会失败 well, I'll just fail.
也就是说 I mean, in other words, uh...
我能通过任何一种别的考试 I can pass any other sort of a test...
我甚至能得个A 如果我肯花精力的话 and, you know, I can even get an "A" if I put in the required effort...
可我就是没有- but I just don't, uh --
没有一点办法去通过这种考试 I just don't have a clue how to pass this test.
我是说 当然了 我知道这不是考试 I mean -- I mean, of course, I realize this isn't a test...
可是在我眼里它就是个考试 but, um, I see it as a test...
而且我感觉我会考砸 and I feel I'm going to fail it.
这是非常可怕的 I mean, it's -- it's very scary.
我会有种找不到北的感觉 我是说- I just feel, uh, just totally at sea. I mean --
好的 我能想象出一种生活 沃利 Well, you know, I could imagine a life, Wally...
每一天都将是一个神奇的 不朽的 创造性的任务 in which each day would become an incredible, monumental, creative task...
而我们未必能承受它 and we're not necessarily up to it.
比如 你想离开和你共同生活的人 你就离开了 I mean, if you felt like walking out on the person you live with, you'd walk out.
然后如果你想要它 你又回来了 Then if you felt like it, you'd come back.
但与此同时 另一个人会对你的离开做出反应 But meanwhile, the other person would have reacted to your walking out.
那种生活会有这些感情 It would be a life of such feeling.
我领导的那个工作坊 它神奇的一点是 I mean, what was amazing in the workshops I led...
人们似乎如此快地坠入激情 was how quickly people seemed to fall into enthusiasm...
庆典 欢乐 惊奇 离弃 狂野 温柔 celebration, joy, wonder, abandon, wildness, tenderness.
我们能承受这样去生活吗？ Could we stand to live like that?
我认为 与另一个人产生接触的时刻 Yeah, I think it's that moment of contact with another person.
那是我们所惧怕的 I mean, that's what scares us.
那个和他人面对面的时刻 I mean, that moment of being face to face with another person.
你看 现在- [笑声] I mean, now -- [Laughs]
你不觉得这有多吓人 我们感到害怕是很奇怪的 You wouldn't think it would be so frightening. It's strange that we find it so frightening.
其实它并不奇怪 Well, it isn't that strange.
首先 感到害怕是不无原因的 I mean, first of all, there are some pretty good reasons for being frightened.
你知道的 人类是一种复杂和危险的生物 I mean, you know, the human being is a complex and dangerous creature.
说实在的 你要开始活在每一刻？ I mean, really, if you start living each moment?
天哪 那可是个不小的挑战 Christ, that's quite a challenge.
如果你真的要放开 你要真正投入和他人的接触 I mean, if you really reach out and you're really in touch with the other person...
那的确是件值得努力的事 我真心这么想 well, that really is something to strive for, I think, I really do.
是的 一个人不这样简直可悲 Yeah, it's just so pathetic if one doesn't do that.
当然也有麻烦 因为当你越是接近一个人 Of course there's a problem, because the closer you come, I think, to another human being...
那个人就越来越彻底的神秘- the more completely mysterious -- and unreachable --
和遥不可及 that person becomes.
你明白 你必须放开自己 投入进去 你必须和他们有来有往 I mean, you know, you have to reach out, you have to go back and forth with them...
你必须得产生关联 可你是在和某种幽灵产生关联 and you have to relate, and yet you're relating to a ghost or something.
怎么说呢 因为我们就是幽灵 I don't know, because we're ghosts.
我们是幻象 我们是谁？ We're phantoms. Who are we?
那也就是去承认 去面对一个事实 你是完全孤独的 And that's to face, to confront the fact that you're completely alone.
而接受你的孤独 也就是接受死亡 And to accept that you're alone is to accept death.
你是说 当你孤独时 你其实是在伴随着死亡 You mean, because somehow when you are alone, you're alone with death.
就是说 再没什么能挡在你和它之间 之类的意思 I mean, nothing's obstructing your view of it, or something like that.
没错 Right.
如果我理解正确的话 我想 呃 海德格尔说过 You know, if I understood it correctly, I think, uh, Heidegger said...
如果你要充分经历自己的存在 that, uh, if you were to experience your own being to the full...
你就会经历存在向死的衰败 you'd be experiencing the decay of that being toward death...
作为你经验的一部分 as a part of your experience.
你知道 在性爱中有那么一刻 是彻底忘我的 You know, in the sexual act there's that moment of complete forgetting...
这很神奇 which is so incredible.
而下一刻 你就开始想事情： Then in the next moment, you start to think about things:
戏剧工作 明天该干什么 Work on the play, what you've got to do tomorrow.
我不知道你是不是这样 我觉得这应该很普遍 I don't know if this is true of you, but I think it must be quite common.
世界很快就闯入了 The world comes in quite fast.
同样的 这可能是因为 我们害怕位于忘我的状态 Now, that again may be because we're afraid to stay in that place of forgetting...
因为那同样接近死亡 because that, again, is close to death.
就像那些害怕睡觉的人 Like people who are afraid to go to sleep.
也就是说 你产生相互关联 而你不清楚下一刻什么会到来 In other words, you interrelate, and you don't know what the next moment will bring.
不清楚下一刻有什么 And to not know what the next moment will bring...
会让你进一步感知到死亡 brings you closer to a perception of death.
这也是我认为 为什么人们要搞男女关系 You see, that's why I think that people have affairs.
你看 在戏剧这行 当你得到好评 I mean, you know, in the theater, if you get good reviews...
有那么一刻 你会觉得自己拥有点什么 you feel for a moment that you've got your hands on something.
你明白吗？ 那是种很好的感觉 You know what I mean? I mean, it's a good feeling.
可之后它很快地消逝了 But then that feeling goes quite quickly.
再一次 你不知道接下来该做什么 And once again you don't know quite what you should do next.
会发生什么呢？ What'll happen?
好 搞男女关系 到了某一点上 Well, have an affair, and up to a certain point...
你可以实在感到 自己正脚踏实地 you can really feel that you're on firm ground, you know.
接下来有性事要去征服 有各种各样的问题 There's a sexual conquest to be made. There are different questions.
她喜欢咬耳朵吗？ Does she enjoy the ears being nibbled?
在一家雅致的法国餐厅谈论叔本华要不要太激烈呢？ How intensely can you talk about Schopenhauer at some elegant French restaurant?
所有这些乱七八糟的 Whatever nonsense it is.
这些都会给你一种安全感的假象 It's all, I think, to give you the semblance that there's firm earth.
然而 谈一场认真的恋爱 和另一个人持续几年的恋情- Well, have a real relationship with a person that goes on for years --
那是完全不可预测的 That's completely unpredictable.
那样你就砍断了所有拴船的绳索 你驶入了未知的大海 Then you've cut off all your ties to the land, and you're sailing into the unknown...
蛮荒的海域 into uncharted seas.
你看 人们紧紧攀住这些形象 父亲 母亲 丈夫 妻子 I mean, you know, people hold on to these images of father, mother, husband, wife...
为了同一个原因- again for the same reason --
因为这些似乎能给提供某种安全感 'cause they seem to provide some firm ground.
可那儿根本没有什么妻子 But there's no wife there.
它意味着什么？一个妻子 What does that mean? A wife.
一个丈夫 一个儿子 A husband. A son.
一个婴儿抓住你的手 A baby holds your hands...
倏忽间 一个大汉将你从地上举起 and then suddenly there's this huge man lifting you off the ground...
而后他便不在了 and then he's gone.
那个儿子在哪？ Where's that son?
[沃利的独白]所有别的顾客 好像几个小时前就走了 [Wally Narrating] All the other customers seemed to have left hours ago.
我们拿到账单 安德烈掏的钱 We got the bill, and Andre paid for our dinner.
真的吗？ Really?
[模糊的交谈] [Conversing, Indistinct]
[沃利的独白] 我为自己叫了辆出租车 [Wally Narrating] I treated myself to a taxi.
回家路上 我穿过城市的街道 I rode home through the city streets.
没有哪条街 哪栋建筑 There wasn't a street, there wasn't a building...
不会勾起 我脑中的回忆 That wasn't connected to some memory in my mind.
那儿 我买了一套衣服 和我的父亲 There, I was buying a suit with my father.
那儿 我在放学后 喝了一杯冰激凌苏打 There, I was having an ice cream soda after school.
当我终于到家时 黛比已经下班回来了 When I finally came in, Debby was home from work...
然后我告诉了她所有的事 关于我和安德烈的晚餐 And I told her everything about my dinner with Andre.